Make NOD Great Again

[Cjx0r]

Quote

I had this typed out for a couple of days and just never hit submit. I'll post it, but I will say that this thread is to provoke a discussion on the "new vanilla" FDS settings. No one is here to argue about our personal opinions regarding these settings.

 

Let's not be n00b about this. Pimp weapons, buying guns/tanks thru !cmd, most polls are disabled, art splash was fucked to hell, hourglass isn't even in the mix, but an SBH can't pick up a shotgun? This game was balanced from the beginning, and while I do understand practically none of us are satisfied with vanilla gameplay anymore, the modifications made upset this balance. Nod has always been handicapped on firepower (especially with the art splash change) and stealth was more or less an attempt to make up for that. Limiting the weapons they can acquire to the shittest rifle in any FPS to date limits the roll of this character and hinders Nod; effectively giving GDI the advantage on multi-roll units. 

 

Stealth isn't everything. It wasn't even a big deal when they could pick up rifles and I'm sure that's the biggest concern anyone here has. There is just too much nerfing on NOD to balance them with GDI. Don't forget they have the 2 strongest vehicles, a more responsive base defense system, a wayyy smaller hitbox on WF compared to air, bar is much lower than HON and arguably presents a smaller target (same with agt), their !buy vehicle is better than NOD's, mammy splash isn't nerfed, gunner vs LCG, and much more! (act now)  At least the recon bikes could outrun an agt missile at full speed provided you don't lose momentum or aren't driving straight at it like on under. 

 

There are some maps that tilt either direction based on building placement. For instance nod has a huge advantage on field with air being tucked all the way in the back but WF is front and center. Flipside on walls you can hit hon really far away. Complex has an opening to hit WF yet air is exposed is a similar manner. It's really back and forth, and I've actually heard that NOD supposedly wins most of the games. What do you guys think?

 

My Opinion: Bring back recon bikes, let SBHs pick up more guns.

[ROZPIERDALATOR]

sbh n00b without fancy weapons is best thing on rencorner. balance is good.
probably you play too much on MPF (where NOD is insanely OP) thats why you think NOD isnt good. on MPF they made light tank faster, stank has more fire power, flamer can melt any GDI tank in few seconds and burn infantry very quick, lcg is better than volt and sbh noobs can pick up all guns.
result? nobody wants play in GDI

[ehh]

nod will get worse if sbhs can pick up weapons

[Cjx0r]

2 hours ago, ROZPIERDALATOR said:

sbh n00b without fancy weapons is best thing on rencorner. balance is good.
probably you play too much on MPF (where NOD is insanely OP) thats why you think NOD isnt good. on MPF they made light tank faster, stank has more fire power, flamer can melt any GDI tank in few seconds and burn infantry very quick, lcg is better than volt and sbh noobs can pick up all guns.
result? nobody wants play in GDI

It doesn't seem like we're discussing the same thing.

 

I'm making the suggestion that sbhs should be able to pick up more guns, not the fancy ones sir. Also a comparison to MPF doesn't contribute to this discussion. I'm clearly not suggesting anything close to the MPF nod features you listed; it's super overkill. 

 

It's like if I made a suggestion to install windows on a house and you came back with "Let's just tear down the walls while we're at it!". 

 

[dubstar]

seems you got a topic going about vanilla days I would like to see at bare minimum the free infantry dropping their main weapon when killed (shotgun, flamethrower, grenade launcher and slow repair gun).

 

i'm not so bothered about sbh being nerfed regarding weapon pickups

personally I have always felt that sbh should cost 1000 credits because it is an advanced character

[WNxH3adSh00t]

Edited April 20, 2018 by WNxH3adSh00t

[Delusional]

The ability to fuck up an entire gdi siege (i.e killing hotties, c4'ing tanks and stealing them), the ability to start the fight hs'ing someone with a very good weapon with a great rof, the ability of sneaking inside an entire base and plant nukes without being seen and being able to defend them without being seen, the ability to carry c4's and being able to pretty much finish a game by gathering 3 sbhs and rushing a building, the ability to fuck up the enemy snipers at any time, being able to scout without being seen.... I could go on for days.

And you say sbhs should be able to take more weapons cj? You're lucky they cost 400, it's just a joke.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Delusional

[Cjx0r]

19 minutes ago, Delusional said:

The ability to fuck up an entire gdi siege (i.e killing hotties, c4'ing tanks and stealing them), the ability to start the fight hs'ing someone with a very good weapon with a great rof, the ability of sneaking inside an entire base and plant nukes without being seen and being able to defend them without being seen, the ability to carry c4's and being able to pretty much finish a game by gathering 3 sbhs and rushing a building, the ability to fuck up the enemy snipers at any time, being able to scout without being seen.... I could go on for days.

And you say sbhs should be able to take more weapons cj? You're lucky they cost 400, it's just a joke.

Idk I feel like it's the same as the other response. I'm not saying they should get all weapons, just be able to actually pick up something. On top of that, what you suggested was just like the previous gentleman; None of that is how it works even if they could pick up weapons. No one drops c4, any attempt to defend a beacon literally points you out behind enemy lines, the laser rifle has handicaps caused by the burn slouching and you're better off shooting someone 4 times in the face with a pistol, current rencorner maps have added guard towers that completely diminish an sbh's ability to entire a base undetected, the 3 man sbh scenario is legit. If you can get 3 people to cordinate to destroy 1 building, that's called teamwork not a unintended result lmao. Idk why people have this impression that not being seen at distance is a huge advantage when you literally can't do shit without exposing yourself. 

 

Increase cost of SBH or lengthen the stealth warmup after shooting. These aren't game losing disadvantages you are referencing. More specifically, because no scenario suggested is actually applicable in THIS server. maybe mpf

[ehh]

36 minutes ago, Delusional said:

The ability to fuck up an entire gdi siege (i.e killing hotties, c4'ing tanks and stealing them), the ability to start the fight hs'ing someone with a very good weapon with a great rof, the ability of sneaking inside an entire base and plant nukes without being seen and being able to defend them without being seen, the ability to carry c4's and being able to pretty much finish a game by gathering 3 sbhs and rushing a building, the ability to fuck up the enemy snipers at any time, being able to scout without being seen.... I could go on for days.

And you say sbhs should be able to take more weapons cj? You're lucky they cost 400, it's just a joke.

nah most sbh players suck balls, making sbh better makes your team worse since all your noobs will be doing fuck all with a sbh instead of repairing you.

pls

[Vultima]

Honestly the only things SBH are good for is stealing tanks(occasionally, if WF dead or whatnot) and planting nukes, it will just be more noobs hovering around with SBHs waiting for weapons drops, wasting time and ultimately just getting killed over and over anyway, sure its fun(kinda) but it won't make Nod stronger.  I think Shai has some stats on maps that the server records, and im pretty sure nod wins most maps tbh, it's even like that in small player games so I guess by letting SBHs have more capabilities, there will be more nubs running around which will balance it out lol, especially on non base defense maps.  One of the only things I think is really imbalanced is points-mod, a med gets about 2 points for shooting an arty, an arty gets 7 or so(meaning 1v1s are super nod biased on base defense maps), and nod wins non base defense maps cos of flamers. 

Put it this way...considering lots of players in the server 10+

Mesa  - Arties can sit in their base entrance and hit WF, if meds do that, the hotties get splashed, sure you can put a tank uptop, but they eventually just get flanked and die and nobody thinks to do this really...

Field - duh

Under - GDI can do a pretty good job of pinning nod in, but MRLS get melted when they try to whore unless EVERYONE is working together on GDI and repairs are quite efficient, nod can hold the front of GDI pretty well also, but harder to whore, stanks get found out pretty easily

Canyon - Before first harv nod can afford arty GDI has to wait or get MRLS and get melted by arties due to not being able to outmaneuver them, however GDI doesn't have to wait long for the harvy at this point, but there is a WEIRD AF trend in this server where people don't save money, and just buy hotwires as their first purchase, which makes nod even stronger, because nod will buy arties with their first purchase, nod can just rush with flamers at the same time GDI is getting meds, since its close quarters, flamers win, meds end up chasing flamers around the base, whilst the arties keep on coming also

Complex - 3 Base entrances to cover, stealth ftw, sneaky flamer to the bar, gg, half the time nod loses is because there are too many SBH

BunkersTS, - Big map, 3 base entrances, however GDI has a much easier time of "sitting" on the base, its hard to get a flamer in, stanks can be effective but I dont see many stank rushes on this map for whatever reason, probably because GDI is sitting on their base and the moment one gets dropped by the plane its obvious

Bio - Big map so stanks pretty good, guard towers do deter SBH but they can get melted, same as bunkers though, GDI can easily sit on the base kill any arties which drop out the plane

Walls flying - GDI, orcas OP

Walls - GDI, too much open field for flamers to be effective, only 2 routes to cover, stanks have to filter though 1 entrance, any half baked defense can stop that

City flying - Nod, stanks eventually get by

City - Even worst because no Orcas to look for the stanks

Hourglass - Arties, boring AF unless Hillcamp is enabled, just becomes stale, "il try left this time, now right, now left", means nobody is watching top because honestly whats the point, and stanks can get by due to that

Glacier - Orcas's op, air is easy to hit, however a stank rush through the most unused part of the super is super effective so its 50/50

Stealth becomes more effective on less player counts for obvious reasons, however arties not so much because people are less likely to repair each other, so people end up trying to engage meds alone and die,plus if its flying map, arties are totally useless, so nod just spams the crap out of ramjets/stanks, GDI would be strong if people played it "properly" and tried to pin nod in, but that requires too much organisation

 

Thats at least how I see the maps anyway, im sure people probably have other opinions, but I think its kinda balanced with a bit more favor to nod actually

[Cjx0r]

3 hours ago, ehh said:

nah most sbh players suck balls, making sbh better makes your team worse since all your noobs will be doing fuck all with a sbh instead of repairing you.

pls

ehh brings up a great point. It is so insignificant it could only serve to handicap NOD as a team and therefore is more of a disadvantage than advantage. Not sure why it was ever limited.

 

2 hours ago, Vultima said:

Honestly the only things SBH are good for is stealing tanks(occasionally, if WF dead or whatnot) and planting nukes, it will just be more noobs hovering around with SBHs waiting for weapons drops, wasting time and ultimately just getting killed over and over anyway, sure its fun(kinda) but it won't make Nod stronger.  I think Shai has some stats on maps that the server records, and im pretty sure nod wins most maps tbh, it's even like that in small player games so I guess by letting SBHs have more capabilities, there will be more nubs running around which will balance it out lol, especially on non base defense maps.  One of the only things I think is really imbalanced is points-mod, a med gets about 2 points for shooting an arty, an arty gets 7 or so(meaning 1v1s are super nod biased on base defense maps), and nod wins non base defense maps cos of flamers. 

Put it this way...considering lots of players in the server 10+

Mesa  - Arties can sit in their base entrance and hit WF, if meds do that, the hotties get splashed, sure you can put a tank uptop, but they eventually just get flanked and die and nobody thinks to do this really...

Field - duh

Under - GDI can do a pretty good job of pinning nod in, but MRLS get melted when they try to whore unless EVERYONE is working together on GDI and repairs are quite efficient, nod can hold the front of GDI pretty well also, but harder to whore, stanks get found out pretty easily

Canyon - Before first harv nod can afford arty GDI has to wait or get MRLS and get melted by arties due to not being able to outmaneuver them, however GDI doesn't have to wait long for the harvy at this point, but there is a WEIRD AF trend in this server where people don't save money, and just buy hotwires as their first purchase, which makes nod even stronger, because nod will buy arties with their first purchase, nod can just rush with flamers at the same time GDI is getting meds, since its close quarters, flamers win, meds end up chasing flamers around the base, whilst the arties keep on coming also

Complex - 3 Base entrances to cover, stealth ftw, sneaky flamer to the bar, gg, half the time nod loses is because there are too many SBH

BunkersTS, - Big map, 3 base entrances, however GDI has a much easier time of "sitting" on the base, its hard to get a flamer in, stanks can be effective but I dont see many stank rushes on this map for whatever reason, probably because GDI is sitting on their base and the moment one gets dropped by the plane its obvious

Bio - Big map so stanks pretty good, guard towers do deter SBH but they can get melted, same as bunkers though, GDI can easily sit on the base kill any arties which drop out the plane

Walls flying - GDI, orcas OP

Walls - GDI, too much open field for flamers to be effective, only 2 routes to cover, stanks have to filter though 1 entrance, any half baked defense can stop that

City flying - Nod, stanks eventually get by

City - Even worst because no Orcas to look for the stanks

Hourglass - Arties, boring AF unless Hillcamp is enabled, just becomes stale, "il try left this time, now right, now left", means nobody is watching top because honestly whats the point, and stanks can get by due to that

Glacier - Orcas's op, air is easy to hit, however a stank rush through the most unused part of the super is super effective so its 50/50

Stealth becomes more effective on less player counts for obvious reasons, however arties not so much because people are less likely to repair each other, so people end up trying to engage meds alone and die,plus if its flying map, arties are totally useless, so nod just spams the crap out of ramjets/stanks, GDI would be strong if people played it "properly" and tried to pin nod in, but that requires too much organisation

 

Thats at least how I see the maps anyway, im sure people probably have other opinions, but I think its kinda balanced with a bit more favor to nod actually

exactly! if anything it'll turn the tide away from nod for a change.

 

Did not know about the points differential, that's pretty unbalanced.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Cjx0r

[Vandal33]

Didn't sbh can  pick up the semi auto rifle? I'm ok with sbh can only pick up the lower tier weapons, they aren't op anyway even if they have powerful guns. It's their sneaking that makes them good but giving them powerful weapons doesn't make their sneakiness (the only thing they are good at) any better.

[ehh]

yes, sbh with a shotgun is pretty good.

rather leave it as it is

[Vultima]

dont give me aids pls

[Iran]

game would be 2x better without SBHS tbh

[ROZPIERDALATOR]

2x better for you*

[masscarriers]

game would be better without arts

[Itai795]

I'm pretty sure Nod (and not NOD...) wins most of matches anyway. You started by saying you think they are too weak for some reasons, and need balanced. Then the topic changed to "should SBHs pick up weapons?", which will only make nod weaker because of noobs (see Vultima explanation).

So I don't get the flow of this topic.

[Cjx0r]

Not seeing any good arguments. It's all just "I don't want to have to worry about a player doing *blank*". I can sit here and list off specific scenarios in which every unit will succeed and each one has a legitimate counter. All I'm hearing are terrible reasons why an under-powered team should have the only advantage they have (strategy) severely limited because the people in charge are essentially afraid of the dark. 

You want unfair, unbalanced? Try a team that has no Heavy Armor/Firepower vehicles. and here's mass making that point for me

game would be better without arts

 

In b4 ppl suggest a flamer is a field offensive vehicle. Pro tip: it's not

Edited April 27, 2018 by Cjx0r

[Cjx0r]

On 4/25/2018 at 4:09 PM, Itai795 said:

You started by saying you think they are too weak for some reasons, and need balanced. Then the topic changed to "should SBHs pick up weapons?", which will only make nod weaker because of noobs (see Vultima explanation).

So I don't get the flow of this topic.

Actually the first and last thing I brought up was that sbh should pick up weapons. Not sure what you're reading. 

 

I'm pretty sure Nod (and not NOD...) wins most of matches anyway.

Not sure why that's supposed to suggest these changes are necessary. I've play games on RC regularly where no one purchases vehicles on one side for at least the first 20mins. These aren't the brightest people and you'll figure it out when you look into the victory conditions.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Cjx0r

[Vultima]

Im really not seeing the point of this topic, you said its not fair that nod don't have firepower and got nerfed in certain areas, but then agreed when I said actually Nod has a huge advantage on rush maps and balanced on base defence maps, I get that "just use stanks" is a copout, but its the truth, stealth is super strong in this game.

I don't see how buffing SBHs would be balanced, many servers ran the SBH no weapons stuff for yeaaaaars, how cheesy would it be for an SBH to plant a nuke ontop of PP on walls for example, the run to top of WF, and cover his own beacon with a sniper, that may be part of the original game, but people complained enough and multiple servers removed it.

Flamer is by far the most powerful veh for destroying buildings though, and can camp outside the WF and even kill a mammy when it pops out the bay doors, faster than the med so can run around the base, which is mainly why Nod is OP on rushmaps.  Nod has way more strategy to play with than GDI which I find is why its generally more fun to play, even without stealth.

*I did have more to reply here but i cba anymore topic is garbo*

If we were to say, set the server up so that when you bought a light it was actually a med, you might think thats not a big change, but it really is, nod would be OP, so how else could it even work if its not possible to make that simple change?

Pretty sure the Renegade story itself is to do with Nod being cunning, and GDI being firepower, so it makes sense anyway in that regard.

[masscarriers]

It's just the cycle of life Vult!

Every few times a year someone starts a topic (usually right after RQing) to complain about sbhs, arts and how NOD is OP. It usually goes on for several pages with people saying the very same stuff that you can read in every one of these exactly same topics. There's always a post that compares how team X is doing on this map compared to that one. Delu will make a reference to thesis lenght posts at some point. Oftentimes a (somewhat finicky) mod will come around with winning/losing stats for each maps to try and prove some mostly irrelevant point (I'm a huge culprit here btw) and the thread will slowly die as people unknowingly realize that it's been this way for decades and trolling highjacks the discussion.
 

Heed my words : Death, taxes and a topic about SBHs.

[shaitan]

1 hour ago, masscarriers said:

Oftentimes a (somewhat finicky) mod will come around with winning/losing stats for each maps to try and prove some mostly irrelevant point

 

 

 

 

 

My ears are ringing. 

[Cjx0r]

3 hours ago, Vultima said:

Im really not seeing the point of this topic, you said its not fair that nod don't have firepower and got nerfed in certain areas, but then agreed when I said actually Nod has a huge advantage on rush maps and balanced on base defence maps, I get that "just use stanks" is a copout, but its the truth, stealth is super strong in this game.

I don't see how buffing SBHs would be balanced, many servers ran the SBH no weapons stuff for yeaaaaars, how cheesy would it be for an SBH to plant a nuke ontop of PP on walls for example, the run to top of WF, and cover his own beacon with a sniper, that may be part of the original game, but people complained enough and multiple servers removed it.

Flamer is by far the most powerful veh for destroying buildings though, and can camp outside the WF and even kill a mammy when it pops out the bay doors, faster than the med so can run around the base, which is mainly why Nod is OP on rushmaps.  Nod has way more strategy to play with than GDI which I find is why its generally more fun to play, even without stealth.

*I did have more to reply here but i cba anymore topic is garbo*

If we were to say, set the server up so that when you bought a light it was actually a med, you might think thats not a big change, but it really is, nod would be OP, so how else could it even work if its not possible to make that simple change?

Pretty sure the Renegade story itself is to do with Nod being cunning, and GDI being firepower, so it makes sense anyway in that regard.

Lol once again, providing specific scenarios in which an sbh does good is NOT a good reason to limit it. Also I don't think you have been reading a single post of mine. You always get what I'm saying wrong. I started off saying that GDI has firepower and nod has strategy but not after this server completely killed it. It was balanced in vanilla and no one here has even came close to a good reason why there needed to be a change. Again, all I hearing is "i'm afraid of what I cant see and therefore do not what to have to be concerned about the unknown". 

 

You guys aren't this terrible at this game. There is NOTHING an sbh can throw at you that you can't handle, or that there isn't a legitimate counter to. Again, not a single good reason.

All you are saying is "I don't want to have to deal with this strategy against me, and therefore it's overpowered." It's a shit argument. 

[ehh]

5 hours ago, shaitan said:

My ears are ringing. 

true

making all the games timed, would balance the game more

 

:>