Viagra vs Hourglass - Hill Camp vs Ditch Camp

[Cjx0r]

Hill Camp - NOT ALLOWED
--------------------------------
Only works at peak of hill
Can only shoot certain buildings in certain areas in certain ways
Literally underfoot of base defenses, especially ob
Must be exposed to strike (very very small area to hide at certain angles)
Only light armored vehicles have real influence (med/mammy can hit ob only while being shot by it)
Ramjets available to assist taking these vehicles out

Ditch Camp - ALLOWED
----------------------------
Works on most of the hill and the ditch
The most vulnerable building is literally PP
Base defenses cannot defend these assaults
Can strike from nominal cover or being out of range, side paths allow for B2B
A lot of vehicles from both sides have influence on the ramp/ditch
Ramjets disabled providing a weak defense for light armored, high damage/long range vehicles

 

Not even going to get into the rocket hummer on viagra...
 

[WNxH3adSh00t]

I agree.

[Madeen]

Yeah, but playing Hourglass is like shoving a rocket or arty shell up your ass for three hours.

 

Niagara at leas is more open and easier to rush on.

[Cjx0r]

22 hours ago, Madeen said:

Yeah, but playing Hourglass is like shoving a rocket or arty shell up your ass for three hours.

 

Niagara at leas is more open and easier to rush on.

Doesn't appear to be denying any of the points I made. 

[DoMiNaNtHuNtEr]

Re-enable ramjets maybe for the ditch camp to even it out? Why are they disabled anyways? n00bjets are annoying as fuck but like, if you gonna cut them out, do it on ALL maps, no? Not just this one? Why this one? Map author's choice? I personally don't like ramjets from a design standpoint, but they are hilariously fun to use, triple killing the free classes all bunched up.

Edited June 29, 2018 by DoMiNaNtHuNtEr

[shaitan]

The reason I removed ramjets from Niagra was because they detract from the whole point of its alternate vehicles. Ramjets just slaughter them, 500s still make an impact on them, but nothing like jets did.

Even if you don't like it, it did balance the gdi/nod wins. Before it was a nod map. I think it was as bad as hourglass, nod wise.

[Vultima]

On 6/28/2018 at 9:11 PM, Cjx0r said:

Hill Camp - NOT ALLOWED
--------------------------------
Only works at peak of hill
Can only shoot certain buildings in certain areas in certain ways
Literally underfoot of base defenses, especially ob
Must be exposed to strike (very very small area to hide at certain angles)
Only light armored vehicles have real influence (med/mammy can hit ob only while being shot by it)
Ramjets available to assist taking these vehicles out

Ditch Camp - ALLOWED
----------------------------
Works on most of the hill and the ditch
The most vulnerable building is literally PP
Base defenses cannot defend these assaults
Can strike from nominal cover or being out of range, side paths allow for B2B
A lot of vehicles from both sides have influence on the ramp/ditch
Ramjets disabled providing a weak defense for light armored, high damage/long range vehicles

 

Not even going to get into the rocket hummer on viagra...
 

1&2 if you are referring to the way you used to have to "aim down" to get a hit on a building, that's not a thing anymore

5. Med/Mammy can hit obby without being hit using the rock on the left hand side, light can't hit AGT at all.

As for ditch camp, both teams can do the exact same thing to eachother, PP is able to be hit by both teams from the ditch, Bar/Air can be hit respectively

Im not sure about the point of this topic, "Viagra" is just a map which adds a bit of fun into the game, Stanks normally finish it as they are always strong on large maps, just as they always do on city_flying, but nobody complains about that, the hummer is BS but again, so are Stanks in this setting and recons are sneaky beaky.

Ramjets are OP on Viagra, can reach everything but can't be reached, it was on orignally and it was friggin awful, the map devolved so hard into just meds/stanks/ramjets

Fact is some maps different teams have different advantages and nothing much to be done, pretty sure Shai(well the server) actual tracks stats of win percentages of games, and if its too inbalanced the map gets removed anyhoo

[Cjx0r]

7 hours ago, Vultima said:

1&2 if you are referring to the way you used to have to "aim down" to get a hit on a building, that's not a thing anymore

5. Med/Mammy can hit obby without being hit using the rock on the left hand side, light can't hit AGT at all.

As for ditch camp, both teams can do the exact same thing to eachother, PP is able to be hit by both teams from the ditch, Bar/Air can be hit respectively

Im not sure about the point of this topic, "Viagra" is just a map which adds a bit of fun into the game, Stanks normally finish it as they are always strong on large maps, just as they always do on city_flying, but nobody complains about that, the hummer is BS but again, so are Stanks in this setting and recons are sneaky beaky.

Ramjets are OP on Viagra, can reach everything but can't be reached, it was on orignally and it was friggin awful, the map devolved so hard into just meds/stanks/ramjets

Fact is some maps different teams have different advantages and nothing much to be done, pretty sure Shai(well the server) actual tracks stats of win percentages of games, and if its too inbalanced the map gets removed anyhoo

Okay.

 

First and fifth line First two lines aren't arguments; Also the line shai gave about "balancing out gdi/nod wins" like that either implies a fun/fair/challenging gameplay experience. 

3rd line isn't an argument. I feel there's a misconception of what I'm trying to convey. You guys are focusing in on specific aspects of either missing the entire point of the thread.  

I didn't know the map name off the top of my head. I fixed it later in the body but kept the topic cause it started looking funny lol. I'm not quite sure what the rest of the line is even supposed to mean.

Yes and but also in response to shai's line, a ramjet is critical in disrupting an organized mrls/arty rush. It allows for extreme camping without it and seems to directly conflict with the ruling on hourglass of hillcamp all together.

Last line is correct, that's why that "mammy can hit ob in 1 single spot but light cant hit agt". Those are just differences in maps. Ob is taller and usually as a result has an advantage on base defenses, ESPECIALLY hourglass AND viagra.

 

This is not at all a complaint against specific aspects of either map as it seems you both interpret it. This is me highlighting the logic behind both decision and how they literally go separate ways when it comes to either map. I'm not sure if it's because hourglass goes up and viagra goes down, but these game conditions and rulings are in direct opposition to each other as I originally demonstrated in my post.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Cjx0r

[Cjx0r]

Or here I can even make it simpler.

 

You guys claim hillcamp on hourglass is such an extreme issue it's not only a rule, the map isn't even in rotation as a result of this "extreme advantage". Then turn around and encourage it on viagra which are virtually geometric echoes of each other. It's not consistent. 

 

Both GDI and Nod are completely different teams, with different advantages, disadvantages, strategies, and prone to favour from each varying map in the rotation. I have no clue how anyone would present a near parity win/lost ratio and claim that proves anything right. There SHOULD be varying win/lost ratios it means the game is working correctly and as intended.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Cjx0r

[ehh]

ur all missing one massive issue with hourglass

its shit

[Cjx0r]

44 minutes ago, ehh said:

ur all missing one massive issue with hourglass

its shit

 

[ehh]

wow racism

[Vultima]

7 hours ago, Cjx0r said:

Okay.

 

First and fifth line First two lines aren't arguments; Also the line shai gave about "balancing out gdi/nod wins" like that either implies a fun/fair/challenging gameplay experience. 

3rd line isn't an argument. I feel there's a misconception of what I'm trying to convey. You guys are focusing in on specific aspects of either missing the entire point of the thread. 

 

This is not at all a complaint against specific aspects of either map as it seems you both interpret it. This is me highlighting the logic behind both decision and how they literally go separate ways when it comes to either map. I'm not sure if it's because hourglass goes up and viagra goes down, but these game conditions and rulings are in direct opposition to each other as I originally demonstrated in my post.

I was battling those points of yours but for another reason some servers didn't allow HC in the past because it wasn't "fair" because noobs didn't know how to hit the buildings when playing as Nod, so GDI would always win, I thought you were trying to make that comparison here to Niagra where it isn't an issue.

I honestly don't know why HC isn't allowed on hourglass, the hill ended up being so underutilised, the game normally ended with flamers/stanks going over the top and GDI did the classic thing of camping till they lost, but on the other side of things.  As for the popularity of the map, it really hindered the server when trying to get it started we would notice that the server would sit empty with hourglass running, also the poll to skip map would almost always succeed, maybe this wouldn't be the case if HC was enabled, who knows.

7 hours ago, Cjx0r said:

Or here I can even make it simpler.

 

You guys claim hillcamp on hourglass is such an extreme issue it's not only a rule, the map isn't even in rotation as a result of this "extreme advantage". Then turn around and encourage it on viagra which are virtually geometric echoes of each other. It's not consistent. 

 

Both GDI and Nod are completely different teams, with different advantages, disadvantages, strategies, and prone to favour from each varying map in the rotation. I have no clue how anyone would present a near parity win/lost ratio and claim that proves anything right. There SHOULD be varying win/lost ratios it means the game is working correctly and as intended.

The literal only things Hourglass and Niagra have in common are there is a slope and that infantry are useless, the sides play-out in a total different way.

I get what your saying I made the point myself about certain teams having more advantages over others on maps, ergo it doesn't matter if the win/loss ratio is intended but when it's so badly screwed its just not fun to play on certain side anymore.  Niagra doesn't have this issue hence it still being there which is what im getting at, I'm also not saying it was the reason Hourglass was removed.  It was just reference to the well known fact(guess not) how some maps come and go on the server.  Good example being that one which was in kinda recently where the base defences could reach way too far and it looked like city, nod basically had 70% of the map to play with whereas GDI had piss all and would always get pinned in to the point people would just go AFK.  Normally id be up for a scenario where one team gets more of a beating than another and you gotta try and push past it, but it would never happen...people just give up.

[shaitan]

Ramjets aren't that critical on that map right now. If you stop and think about it the hummers/recons took over that role of stopping mrls/arties.

500s/both apcs(slamming into them takes away the speed advantage and disorientates them) have the role of stopping recons/hummers. Arts/mrls(target locked) can stop hummers easily if the shot is led right. 

[WNxH3adSh00t]

A ramjet can't 1v1 a teched arty/mlrs by itself so I don't see the issue why it was removed? You even can't kill it in a 1v1 because the player will go out to repair it and since the ramjet has a slow rof, all the damage it makes will be repaired.

A 500 is even worse at killing lightly armored targets, especially the TOW Humvee since it takes about 4 shots to take away 2 squares from it.s health.

I forgot everyone in ren knows the exact range to lead shots against something as fast as the humvees or the recon bikes.

 

You just want tthe map to be heavily vehicle sided because they can outrange everything but the 500 which is crap by itself unless it's used in sniping. Even the railgun takes only about 2 squares from a TOW Humvee's life.

 

If GDI has Nod pinned with MLRSs then they can just get a bunch of stanks or even recon bikes to close the distance and kill them, but what about the other way around?

What does GDI have that can close the distance and kill the teched arties(assuming it's a decent sized game) ? They will make short work of meds and mammoths since they outrange them by a lot and the splash will kill the infantry behind the tanks. Humvees aren't as fast as the recon bikes nor do they cloak. The arties can dispose of them easily if they are in great numbers when they get close.

 

Both teams have access to the ramjet(and even the 500) so if you think they're broken because they can shoot from one base to the other then you should be reminded that the other team also has access to it and it can counter it. Not to mention the 500 drops at the start of the game, you don't even have to buy your own sniper, just go down the cliff, grab the rifle and kill the enemy sniper. It's not that hard.

 

If anything, it just adds a new way to counter lightly armored stuff which is what the ramjet's purpose really is. You can just make it do no damage to infantry(like 500 couldn't on volcano flying) if people bitch about getting sniped across the map(then again, you can do it with the 500 aswell).

Edited June 30, 2018 by WNxH3adSh00t

[Vultima]

58 minutes ago, WNxH3adSh00t said:

A ramjet can't 1v1 a teched arty/mlrs by itself so I don't see the issue why it was removed? You even can't kill it in a 1v1 because the player will go out to repair it and since the ramjet has a slow rof, all the damage it makes will be repaired.

A 500 is even worse at killing lightly armored targets, especially the TOW Humvee since it takes about 4 shots to take away 2 squares from it.s health.

I forgot everyone in ren knows the exact range to lead shots against something as fast as the humvees or the recon bikes.

 

1. A ramjet can pin an arty to the point it can't move - not to mention it can out range an arty entirely

2. 2 ramjets = gg, and as mentioned before, this map turns into a RAMJET FEST so its not going to be uncommon

3. Sarcastic comment is sarcastic, ren is still full of people who don't even jump out to repair their own veh, or leave base with an engi(which actually is useless against your first point too), or without a rep gun at all - this is not to say we must cater for the lower skilled players by, in reality the removal of the ramjets is for those low skills nubs who just want to snipe tanks all day because its easy

Also final point your complaining that a SNIPER can't kill a TANK, logic, snipers shouldn't be this go to unit to deal with every scenario but it ends up that way, you only prefer it this way because you snipe 24/7

 

58 minutes ago, WNxH3adSh00t said:

If GDI has Nod pinned with MLRSs then they can just get a bunch of stanks or even recon bikes to close the distance and kill them, but what about the other way around?

What does GDI have that can close the distance and kill the teched arties(assuming it's a decent sized game) ? They will make short work of meds and mammoths since they outrange them by a lot and the splash will kill the infantry behind the tanks. Humvees aren't as fast as the recon bikes nor do they cloak. The arties can dispose of them easily if they are in great numbers when they get close.

 

Both teams have access to the ramjet(and even the 500) so if you think they're broken because they can shoot from one base to the other then you should be reminded that the other team also has access to it and it can counter it. Not to mention the 500 drops at the start of the game, you don't even have to buy your own sniper, just go down the cliff, grab the rifle and kill the enemy sniper. It's not that hard.

 

You just said (sarcastically) that everyone knows how to nail the hummers, when in reality it's hard, so GDI realistically can counter the arties with a few hummers(not saying that happens through unless there is actual teamwork), what your essentially saying is "its too hard to deal with tanks with tanks so lets just use the OP snipers instead", its lazy, unskilled and a garbage concept to begin with.

 

Final point: Nod is mainly about being sneaky and technical whereas GDI is brute force, that is exactly what the hummers and recons bikes do.

[ehh]

tbh even though i hate these dumb ass humvees

the map plays much better than it did when ramjets were available, ramjets make the map really poop; specially in lower player games on niagra.

god bless shai

[WNxH3adSh00t]

1. A ramjet can pin an arty to the point it can't move - not to mention it can out range an arty entirely

2. 2 ramjets = gg, and as mentioned before, this map turns into a RAMJET FEST so its not going to be uncommon

 

 

I don't think you even bothered reading everything I wrote.

It can pin it if it's all by itself, yeah, it won't destroy it because there's either someone repairing it or the driver will just repair it. The ramjet has a slow rof and the arty being so lightweight, it can easily be repaired. By the time the jet shoots 4 times(not enough to kill it) and reloads the arty will be up at full health. Then it needs to get shot about 5 or 6 more times(means a reload) to get the driver to repair again.

And unless you're communicating for a jet rush to focus them individually, people will just mind their own shit.

 

It won't turn into a ramjet fest. Most of the people that play nowdays are noobs who only buy a tank and roll out. If anything there will be about 3 maybe 4 ramjets max(depending on who plays aswell) which can be countered by your own snipers. The only way I would see it being overpowered is if only one side had access to it. 

 

 

If ramjets make the map so 'poopy' why not remove them entirely because they can outrange arties/mlrs units on almost every map.

Edited June 30, 2018 by WNxH3adSh00t

[Cjx0r]

10 hours ago, Vultima said:

I honestly don't know why HC isn't allowed on hourglass

We can just throw away the rest and keep this line. It's also starting to get tedious people opting out of making points in lieu of an opportunity to disagree with me publicly lol. virtue signaling isn't actually making any points. You literally go on to agree with me but then turn around and claim that you know what's fun and not fun which kind of highlights the problem. The people that control this server are doing so inconsistently, and in a fashion that suits their personal opinions and preferences greater than community interest, feedback, and retention. Rencorner is falling apart and losing hard to a server that IS doing these things and has the sheer activity to prove it. 

7 hours ago, shaitan said:

Ramjets aren't that critical on that map right now. If you stop and think about it the hummers/recons took over that role of stopping mrls/arties.

500s/both apcs(slamming into them takes away the speed advantage and disorientates them) have the role of stopping recons/hummers. Arts/mrls(target locked) can stop hummers easily if the shot is led right. 

Translation "I think hummers and recons deserve modifications to force their use outside of any useful purpose." It basically means he likes recons and will do whatever it takes to provide an atmosphere that finally allows them to be utilized. He's literally saying "I don't like the competition against my favored vehicles, so I removed that competition." 

2 hours ago, Vultima said:

1. A ramjet can pin an arty to the point it can't move - not to mention it can out range an arty entirely

2. 2 ramjets = gg, and as mentioned before, this map turns into a RAMJET FEST so its not going to be uncommon

1 isn't a point or even true. Even if it was, again isn't a point. I love his response to "1v1 arty vs ramjet is fair", "well what about TWO ramjets huh!" LOL oh no! Teamwork saving the day.

The rest of this post is just dissenting to dissent. I don't mind having proper and constructive conversations with people who claim to "hate my guts" but this has got to be the 4th response made in bad faith by just sheer lack of empirical evidence along with spades of conjecture. 

39 minutes ago, WNxH3adSh00t said:

I don't think you even bothered reading everything I wrote.

Exactly, it's just absorbing the gist of your argument then thinking "now how can I disagree with that?" Lol

 

 

As vultima originally said, there are going to be advantages and disadvantages to each map, unit, team, person, vehicle. That means the game is working as intended. Saying "Oh no cause then this would become a ramjet map." The reason I'm not even responding to those "points" vult is that this is WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Cjx0r

[shaitan]

Then don't play the map.

[Cjx0r]

4 minutes ago, shaitan said:

Then don't play the map.

Server owner openly discourages people from playing in server at own detriment. 

 

You can't make this shit up. 3 posts about how much he personally likes these vehicles and hates dying when in them that he'd rather change the entire gameplay experience even if it means openly turning people away. Idk why you question the slow death of rencorner with this mentality. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Cjx0r

[ehh]

yeah headshoot, its a map layout issue that allows ramjets to make the map less interesting, other maps dont have this issue.

anywayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

its only one map, just let it slide lol

[Vultima]

1 hour ago, WNxH3adSh00t said:

1. A ramjet can pin an arty to the point it can't move - not to mention it can out range an arty entirely

2. 2 ramjets = gg, and as mentioned before, this map turns into a RAMJET FEST so its not going to be uncommon

 

 

I don't think you even bothered reading everything I wrote.

It can pin it if it's all by itself, yeah, it won't destroy it because there's either someone repairing it or the driver will just repair it. The ramjet has a slow rof and the arty being so lightweight, it can easily be repaired. By the time the jet shoots 4 times(not enough to kill it) and reloads the arty will be up at full health. Then it needs to get shot about 5 or 6 more times(means a reload) to get the driver to repair again.

And unless you're communicating for a jet rush to focus them individually, people will just mind their own shit.

Clearly I did since I replied to every point, but ok.

1. Its 0 effort for a ramjet to just sit there and keep it constantly pinned until the arty a) gives up, b) someone else joins in, even a GDI solider, so ramjets don't need to be organised it will just happen

2.  Arty won't be healed all the way back up, an arty will die in 6.6hits(lets say 7) arty will be healed by 80%~, a tech can preemptively start healing before it gets to 160HP from the first 4 shots, for max HP, and the average player won't react/nor bother to do this.

 

1 hour ago, WNxH3adSh00t said:

It won't turn into a ramjet fest. Most of the people that play nowdays are noobs who only buy a tank and roll out. If anything there will be about 3 maybe 4 ramjets max(depending on who plays aswell) which can be countered by your own snipers. The only way I would see it being overpowered is if only one side had access to it. 

 

 

If ramjets make the map so 'poopy' why not remove them entirely because they can outrange arties/mlrs units on almost every map.

 

3. It already turned into a ramjet fest, hence being removed it was unplayable af, every game as mentioned before turned into lights(not really people CBA), stanks, meds and mammies, aka stale as hell gameplay.

4. As for the 'poopy' comment, its not a problem on other maps because arties can pretty much hit all the way from side to side because the maps were made with 24 players in mind aka smaller, as the game was originally meant to be played.

 

 

[Cjx0r]

15 minutes ago, Vultima said:

Clearly I did since I replied to every point, but ok.

Clearly didn't because your responses weren't on topic or relevant in anyway. You attempted to dismantle points individually completely missing the overall comparison of both maps (the point of this thread). Again, you're just dissenting to dissent and it's getting old quick. If you want to continue discussing this topic and actually contributing, feel free. The quarter ass trolling from ehh, and irrelevant "points" from you aren't getting us anywhere. 

The point of this thread is pointing out the gaps in logic for both maps rulings and establishing by your own admissions that's it's based entirely on administrative preference. Nothing you have said so far has contradicted that in any way, and have only collaborated my point. 

 

Favor, Color, Ass

Edited June 30, 2018 by Cjx0r

[Vultima]

57 minutes ago, Cjx0r said:

 It's also starting to get tedious people opting out of making points in lieu of an opportunity to disagree with me publicly lol. virtue signaling isn't actually making any points. You literally go on to agree with me but then turn around and claim that you know what's fun and not fun which kind of highlights the problem.

It's a public forum, don't take offence because people don't agree with your points, certainly don't get mad because someone is having a discussion(not an shouting match) because they disagree.

57 minutes ago, Cjx0r said:

The people that control this server are doing so inconsistently, and in a fashion that suits their personal opinions and preferences greater than community interest, feedback, and retention. Rencorner is falling apart and losing hard to a server that IS doing these things and has the sheer activity to prove it. 

 

 

We removed ramjets because people hated the map, we removed hourglass BECAUSE people hated the map, this isn't some kinda personal things against these maps/configurations, if that were true, Id be begging Shai till he demodded me to remove !tank and !weapon because its stupid, but I recognise that is my OPINION and mine alone and others like it, so I don't, sure I whinge about it.  As for Rencorner falling apart, thats a bit dramatic, MPF + Rencorner both have their ups and downs concerning player counts, some people like classic ren with a slight twist, some people like heavily modified ren, just the way it is.

57 minutes ago, Cjx0r said:

Translation "I think hummers and recons deserve modifications to force their use outside of any useful purpose." It basically means he likes recons and will do whatever it takes to provide an atmosphere that finally allows them to be utilized. He's literally saying "I don't like the competition against my favored vehicles, so I removed that competition." 

1 isn't a point or even true. Even if it was, again isn't a point. I love his response to "1v1 arty vs ramjet is fair", "well what about TWO ramjets huh!" LOL oh no! Teamwork saving the day.

 

 

The modifications are part of the map, unless we remove the map(which is dumb because people like it), and whilst you say that removing ramjets is solely for the purpose of "enabling" these vehicles that isn't true, all my points are about how much of a burden on the normal vehicles in the game they are, arty and MRLS due to their lack of mobility, when im on about these ramjet points im specifically on about these 2 vehicles not the hummer or recon, all I essentially said is the hummer and the recon is a nice "trist" to traditional game play, the hummer is virtually useless for actual finishing games, only for destroying vehicles, and useless against infantry.

The literal only problem I have is ramjets on large maps are their invincibility against every light amror vehicle in the game at range, its either essentially remove all light vehicles(due to the existence of ramjets) because whats the point when they get melted vs an enemy they can't see or remove the ramjets, hmm I wonder which option allows for the more game play options.

57 minutes ago, Cjx0r said:

The rest of this post is just dissenting to dissent. I don't mind having proper and constructive conversations with people who claim to "hate my guts" but this has got to be the 4th response made in bad faith by just sheer lack of empirical evidence along with spades of conjecture. 

 

I'll refer to the first sentence I posted, quit making it about something it really isn't about.

 

57 minutes ago, Cjx0r said:

As vultima originally said, there are going to be advantages and disadvantages to each map, unit, team, person, vehicle. That means the game is working as intended. Saying "Oh no cause then this would become a ramjet map." The reason I'm not even responding to those "points" vult is that this is WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.

Niagra is a custom map and with that comes balancing issues remember C&C_Mars.mix? Sadly there isn't anything that can be done, if you remove stanks nod are pretty much useless as they don't have the brute force to match. Also before you mention it's working as intended, the game is already modified at this point since its a custom map.  Again, I hear your point and agree ramjets are part of the game, why do you think im not complaining about their use on normal maps?  The fact is on this map (a custom map), it makes it unplayable, and i'll direct you to paragraph 2, where I mentioned the reason for their removal.

 

Also whilst your on the subject of comparing and justifying everything because its "part of the game", which for the most part I agree with WITH FEW EXCEPTIONS, MPF is borderline not Renegade at this point on certain maps(not saying that's a bad thing, people enjoy that), and most of the modifications there are made by ONE person, so your entire point of saying admins decision isn't fair blah blah is moot, or is your point about rencorner losing to MPF moot, which one is it?