Viagra vs Hourglass - Hill Camp vs Ditch Camp

[Vultima]

56 minutes ago, Cjx0r said:

Server owner openly discourages people from playing in server at own detriment. 

 

You can't make this shit up. 3 posts about how much he personally likes these vehicles and hates dying when in them that he'd rather change the entire gameplay experience even if it means openly turning people away. Idk why you question the slow death of rencorner with this mentality. 

I don't play certain maps because I don't like them, im sure others do the same thing, so its a valid point?  There's certain maps on other games I don't like so I don't play those either?  In any case how come this upsets you so much, you don't even use ramjets you run around as an SBH all the time

[Vultima]

18 minutes ago, Cjx0r said:

Clearly didn't because your responses weren't on topic or relevant in anyway. You attempted to dismantle points individually completely missing the overall comparison of both maps (the point of this thread). Again, you're just dissenting to dissent and it's getting old quick. If you want to continue discussing this topic and actually contributing, feel free. The quarter ass trolling from ehh, and irrelevant "points" from you aren't getting us anywhere. 

The point of this thread is pointing out the gaps in logic for both maps rulings and establishing by your own admissions that's it's based entirely on administrative preference. Nothing you have said so far has contradicted that in any way, and have only collaborated my point. 

 

Favor, Color, Ass

You can't just generalize my comments without breaking down the points which you deem to be  irrelevant, also that response was clearly pointed at headsh00t. (hence the quote).

 

Il just quote myself here again

 

Quote

We removed ramjets because people hated the map, we removed hourglass BECAUSE people hated the map, this isn't some kinda personal things against these maps/configurations, if that were true, Id be begging Shai till he demodded me to remove !tank and !weapon because its stupid, but I recognise that is my OPINION and mine alone and others like it, so I don't, sure I whinge about it.  As for Rencorner falling apart, thats a bit dramatic, MPF + Rencorner both have their ups and downs concerning player counts, some people like classic ren with a slight twist, some people like heavily modified ren, just the way it is.

Maybe you should do the same(in reference to its my OPINION bit), this is the opinion of you and headsh00t and headsh00t is biased af because all he does is snipe, so ofc it effects his gameplay, hence him not making points about the hourglass comparison at all.  I love sniping and using ramjets but even I can see its broken, otherwise i'd be on the other side of the fence.

And finally of course im going to agree with you on some points don't get offended by that and somehow turn it into a negative point that's normally how a debate goes, I don't outright disagree with everything you say because you are who you are, you even said so yourself I agree with some of your points, particularly about the whole HC thing, but people hated the map regardless so it went.

[Cjx0r]

3 hours ago, Vultima said:

It's a public forum, don't take offence because people don't agree with your points, certainly don't get mad because someone is having a discussion(not an shouting match) because they disagree.

 

I'll refer to the first sentence I posted, quit making it about something it really isn't about.

Then don't be so upset about it Vultima jeeze, trying to tell me (the OP) what this thread is about? You can just move on 

[Vultima]

eh?

[Cjx0r]

I'm not going to do this all day Vultima and you've ate up all my patience. Since your original post, which you've misinterpreted as a list of complaints for both maps, it's been nothing but this ridiculous conflation between the comparison that I'm ACTUALLY making. It's not my responsibility you keep you on topic or hold your hand to guide you through your arrogance. You're clearly going to read what you what you want to read and no matter how much ridicule you receive for this, it's not enough to shame you to stop. I can't imagine what it's like to argue so blindly in any direction regardless of the topic, but over the course of the past few months, you've shown this to be no difficult task on your end. 

I don't know what the point would be in continuing to talk to you. It's not even about giving you the benefit of the doubt or being more understanding of your position. You don't have one. All you want to do is argue with me in an attempt to illicit a scenario that you will purposely misconstrued into an offense in an attempt to cull the server more to your liking. Ehh has fucking better bait than you, and it's literally lazy sarcasm. At least he THINKS he's trolling, so if anything someone's getting something out of it. This whole shit right here hasn't been fruitful in the slightest. Just turn around and walk away. You're losing parts of yourself in all this misguided hatred, as well as players. You can't argue for the survival on renegade as a community and consistently portray THIS attitude and contempt towards the game as a whole.

[Vultima]

Few points:

1. You made a topic named "Viagra and Hourglass", obviously stating comparisons between how things aren't allowed on hourglass but perfectly fine in Niagra, then your comment about the hummer, and your multiple comments about how admin decisions are made on this server, aka, the map choice, server config changes, so I think I'm following the thread perfectly fine, but if you want to be dismissive and claim I'n not even though you have be responding to my points in that very same context, your contradicting yourself.

2. You say I don't have a position and just love to argue, go read the other topics, you'll find my position is the exact same on them, iv always said hourglass is a chode map, iv always said ramjets ruin tank battles, also you even acknowledged yourself that I agreed with you on some things?

3. By coming at me here your really just proving my point, you're the one turning this thread sour, it was a legit discussion but you've decided to opt out of it and instead respond in "ridicule"(you really love that word, use it almost daily, yet I never feel any sense of it).

4. Why do you keep comparing me to Trist, I'm not baiting you, your baiting me with this response, this is what you do all the time CJ you think people haven't clocked on by now?

Quote

You can't argue for the survival on renegade as a community and consistently portray THIS attitude and contempt towards the game as a whole.

This doesn't even make sense btw

 

The point you are trying to make is that you think administrative decisions are hurting rencorner, but then offer no valid proof other than "but in a similar setting its allowed", then when I defend the point of these changes, which were made to actually promote fair and most of all fun game play for the majority, you claim I'm personally arguing with everything you say? How does that even make any sense, incase you didn't know this is how things go in the real world, not everyone blindly agrees with everything you say.

 

On 6/28/2018 at 9:16 PM, WNxH3adSh00t said:

I agree.

[Vandal33]

But why?

[DoMiNaNtHuNtEr]

2 hours ago, Cjx0r said:

I'm not going to do this all day Vultima and you've ate up all my patience. Since your original post, which you've misinterpreted as a list of complaints for both maps, it's been nothing but this ridiculous conflation between the comparison that I'm ACTUALLY making. It's not my responsibility you keep you on topic or hold your hand to guide you through your arrogance. You're clearly going to read what you what you want to read and no matter how much ridicule you receive for this, it's not enough to shame you to stop. I can't imagine what it's like to argue so blindly in any direction regardless of the topic, but over the course of the past few months, you've shown this to be no difficult task on your end. 

I don't know what the point would be in continuing to talk to you. It's not even about giving you the benefit of the doubt or being more understanding of your position. You don't have one. All you want to do is argue with me in an attempt to illicit a scenario that you will purposely misconstrued into an offense in an attempt to cull the server more to your liking. Ehh has fucking better bait than you, and it's literally lazy sarcasm. At least he THINKS he's trolling, so if anything someone's getting something out of it. This whole shit right here hasn't been fruitful in the slightest. Just turn around and walk away. You're losing parts of yourself in all this misguided hatred, as well as players. You can't argue for the survival on renegade as a community and consistently portray THIS attitude and contempt towards the game as a whole.

 LMFAO wow man you are REACHING for something that ain't even there. Just get back to what you said earlier:

Quote

 

At least the recon bikes could outrun an agt missile at full speed provided you don't lose momentum or aren't driving straight at it like on under.

 

My Opinion: Bring back recon bikes

 

^^ Keep preaching this to Vultima. 

@Vultima:  The populace will worship the ground you walk on if you add in Recon Bikes/TOW to all maps. Amen.

[Cjx0r]

3 hours ago, DoMiNaNtHuNtEr said:

 LMFAO wow man you are REACHING for something that ain't even there. Just get back to what you said earlier:

^^ Keep preaching this to Vultima. 

@Vultima:  The populace will worship the ground you walk on if you add in Recon Bikes/TOW to all maps. Amen.

Way to contradict your original post pal. Now what am I reaching for exactly? Again, these aren't arguments. The only people embarrassing themselves is you guys. 

Shai was the closest to an argument in favor but even that broke down into a projection of personal preference. Again, coming to this thread to convey a dissent with the general notion, or in Vultima's case his misinterpretation of the general notion, is more inflammatory than anything. It's not criticism to say "that's stupid", "you suck", "I hate you", it just rude lol. If you want, you can actually involve yourselves in the discussion at hand, which I will remind you is

 

The rulings and game conditions for both these maps are in direct contrast with one and other. Then followed with a list of points establishes the contrast from each line to line. Line 1 for hourglass will contrast line 1 from niagra. You can then see that what's considered a problem on one map, is actually encouraged on the other. This thread is to discuss THAT.

 

Like for example, when vultima said something like, and I'm paraphrasing, "tbh idk why HC isn't allowed on hourglass". That was actually on topic, and if he would have expanded on that point of view we would have been engaged in the discussion I intended to prompt when creating this thread. This is like the 9th time I've had to remind this thread what the topic actually is and figuratively drag everyone back to origin point. I'm not going to lie, it's not even frustrating anymore. I'm just honestly astounded as to how bad your impressions are influencing your judgement. At least shaitan can demonstrate an ability to remove himself enough to have a open discussion about views we disagree on. That's all I'm asking from you, in this thread. 

 

[shaitan]

I had to jam Niagra down your throats just to play it in the beginning, and that was after everyone supposedly wanted it(just like Fjords/Mars/Ruins/Hangmans everyone wanted but didn't make it into the rotation at the time). Everyone said it was "bad, the maps is bad". Yet, the same ones who were the loudest in the beginning changed their tune when ramjets were removed, and they gave it a chance.

I'll have you know, I actually watch the gameplay when I am in there. Just like I know the 'inverted hourglass needs hillcamp ruling' is not comparable to Hourglass.mix. When you're in that decline/incline you(as a hummer/recon) are at the suffrage of snipers the whole time. If you get out to repair: you have a high chance of being sniped due to the decline/incline of the tunnel(I've been sniped quite a few times) because you're higher/lower than your vehicle. If you're in an Arty/MRLS then your tech can be killed easily with splash.

Yes, I like the map. It's not perfect by any means, but it sure is fun to fuck around w/o breaking any rules, and get paid for it.

 

[Madeen]

TBH, I don't know what else Vult could say. He is making well-reasoned and respectful counterpoints, only to be received with "hurr-durr that isn't the point".

Even after playing the map a bunch of times, I didn't even realize that Ramjet rifles were removed until I read about it in here - and I don't miss them. I remember this map in rotation during my UNRULES era, and yeah, it was a major Ramjet fest, to the point that the new vehicles were useless. I usually spent my time camping with an APC or a Light Tank. Shai definitely had to remove them, for the sake of balance and toleration. Now, each side has their traditional pros and cons.

And there are very big differences between ditch camping and hill camping (to me, at least). Trying to disrupt a hill camp on Hourglass is much harder for two reasons; lack of space for mobility, and the hindrance of base defenses. The Obelisk and AGT can easily help to hold off an attempt to overcome hill campers on Hourglass. But, in Niagara, there is a ton of open space, with no real threat from defenses to disrupt a take down of Artillery or MRLS'. And the open space really makes a difference here. Not only is there a ton of maneuverability room for Humvees, and Recons... but it benefits other vehicles, too. APC's and Lights can also effectively push back the siege tanks, too.

Deadeyes and Black Hands are also still effective, and even more so than on Hourglass (IMO) because of the open space and the large tunnels/caves on either side of the valley, too. Not to mention Gunners or Raveshaw/Sidney - they can also make use of the tunnels to hold off tanks.

[Forithow]

Should mention that there's 3 entrances for vehicles on Hourglass, being the left, hill and right side whereas Niagra only has 2 vehicle entrances, the PP sides, and AGT/OB side on the left side of the bases if you're looking towards the ditch, meaning less room to rush. So, nothing happening in the ditch? Oh, must be people on the left side.

In addition, MRLS can shoot air and arties can shoot bar from the overhang area in the middle on Niagra (Snipers can do the same but to infantry). On Hourglass, MRLS can shoot hon or ref so easily AND B2B!, arties have a bit of struggle due to the hill incline but they can shoot WF or ref without getting spotted by AGT. (Most games I saw on Hourglass before hill camp rule was MRLS winning via hill or arties winning via hill, making hourglass pretty much a very VERY short game, meaning there's no point to play the map if it's just going to end too quickly, which is why I agree with the hillcamp rule.) Then again, same thing can happen on Niagra, MRLS/Arties can just easily kill PP, and then it's a short game from there. That's just my observation.

[DoMiNaNtHuNtEr]

On 7/1/2018 at 5:51 AM, Cjx0r said:

Way to contradict your original post pal. 

I didn't contradict shit. I'm just saying HOLY FUCK you're nuts. Which is ok. You're reaching for this perfection that looks to be unattainable. 

[Cjx0r]

On 7/2/2018 at 8:28 AM, Madeen said:

TBH, I don't know what else Vult could say. He is making well-reasoned and respectful counterpoints, only to be received with "hurr-durr that isn't the point".

Read this line over and over again until you get the point. Coming in here to talk about specifics on those 2 maps is NOT what this topic is about, let alone defending someone that is shown to have no clue what he's talking about. 

 

Yeah maybe they would be "well reasoned and respectful counterpoints" if the topic was about those lines individually. However the topic is pointing out the contradictions in rulings and the contrasts between those two maps. Vult then decided to take on certain points individually missing the entire point of this thread. Your entire post is completely irrelevant when you go back and see Vultima AGREEING WITH ME ON MY POINT.

On 6/30/2018 at 7:27 AM, Vultima said:

I honestly don't know why HC isn't allowed on hourglass

You have to willfully deny the entire context of this thread and my words within to come to the conclusion you did. Vult's the leader of the "I Hate Cj but don't actually know him" group, ask him for admission, not me. 

 

 

 

On 7/4/2018 at 2:45 PM, DoMiNaNtHuNtEr said:

I didn't contradict shit. I'm just saying HOLY FUCK you're nuts. Which is ok. You're reaching for this perfection that looks to be unattainable. 

Google "reaching" then come back and read your own posts. Explaining to someone trying to flame a thread that they are mistaken in their position is not even remotely close to "reaching". This is what we call "context denial". You can either get on the same page as this topic or just stop talking.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Cjx0r

[Madeen]

4 minutes ago, Cjx0r said:

Read this line over and over again until you get the point. Coming in here to talk about specifics on those 2 maps is NOT what this topic is about, let alone defending someone that is shown to have no clue what he's talking about.

 

*Makes thread about 'Viagra' and Hourglass*

"This thread isn't about those maps!!!11!!!1!!"

[Cjx0r]

2 minutes ago, Madeen said:

*Makes thread about 'Viagra' and Hourglass*

"This thread isn't about those maps!!!11!!!1!!"

Keep up the context denial. You obviously have no clue what's going on here, no need to continue flaming or attempt to derail the thread. 

>makes thread highlighting contrasts between rulings in two maps

>dipshits derail thread into argument over certain highlights made in comparison

Try to be less transparent in your blind rage.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Cjx0r

[shaitan]

I would like to point something out in regards to this line, cj;

Quote

Only light armored vehicles have real influence (med/mammy can hit ob only while being shot by it)

That is not true. If you take your tank slightly to the left of the middle rock, you can fire on the obelisk without triggering it's defense. I would own that hill with just 1-2 techs in a mammy, it always would force nod to side-rush(or flamers over the hill, stanks/arts can't when everything is working right).

When we did allow it, I showed people how it was done...but not many would use it and GDI would lose(which was why I always picked GDI if I could).

[DoMiNaNtHuNtEr]

@Cjx0r lol, no, I addressed your issue. Then I addressed your gigantic spew against Vultima. So I haven't contradicted anything.  IMO your spew against Vultima is a bit much, basically, I mean it seemed he was being as thoughtful as he could be with your issue. This is what I mean when I explain to you that you're reaching too far - Vulltima wasn't being a douchebag shit poster, he was actually trying to address your issue. Take it easy there, nutty. Although I must say, that was one hell of a retort, lol.

As for your issue, I guess, ban ditch camping, just as Field's hill camping has been banned? Make it equal? I remember that map, the power plant is so easy to camp from the ditch.

I agree.

 

[Vandal33]

17 hours ago, Cjx0r said:

Keep up the context denial. You obviously have no clue what's going on here, no need to continue flaming or attempt to derail the thread. 

>makes thread highlighting contrasts between rulings in two maps

>dipshits derail thread into argument over certain highlights made in comparison

Try to be less transparent in your blind rage.

I still don't see discussing about Niagra/Hourglass = "dipshits derail thread into argument over certain highlights made in comparison"

[Cjx0r]

11 hours ago, DoMiNaNtHuNtEr said:

@Cjx0r lol, no, I addressed your issue. Then I addressed your gigantic spew against Vultima. So I haven't contradicted anything. 

 

camping, just as Field's hill camping has been banned? Make it equal? I remember that map, the power plant is so easy to camp from the ditch.

I agree.

 

Thanks for making an ass out of yourself. We can just disregard your nonsense from here on out since you literally just agreed with me. Way to prove this isn't just you trying to flame someone you've only been told about and never actually met. 

 

46 minutes ago, Vandal33 said:

I still don't see discussing about Niagra/Hourglass = "dipshits derail thread into argument over certain highlights made in comparison"

Ask yourself, is this thread a discussion about hourglass and niagra? Are we talking about those maps individually or are we talking about the ruling behind hillcamp on hourglass and how niagra "a geometric echo of hourglass" has contradictory rulings that suggest hillcamp isn't actually a problem? 

 

I honestly don't mind this. I'm used to combating nepotism, internal bias, and context denial; Trying to gang up on me with "you're wrong because I can't grasp what I'm doing here in the first place" is nothing short of comical. The reason I haven't been addressing each response individually cause most of you are so far removed from the topic, it's essentially just trolling. You both couldn't give a flying fuck what this thread is about, just trying to dick ride the only person seemingly making a coherent argument in an attempt to virtue signal publicly your descent with me as a person. 

 

It's funny.

[ehh]

yikes

[Forithow]

You guys gotta just make up and kiss, the topic is gone way off base at this point. (except for Shai) CJ clearly didn't get what he wanted out of the topic, can we get back to focusing on the hourglass hill camp vs niagra ditch camp? Otherwise, this topic is probably gonna get locked at this point.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Forithow

[DoMiNaNtHuNtEr]

@Cjx0r  lol, aww, come now chum. I'm here to entertain. Yes, I agree with you in regards to the Hourglass Viagra camp. But, in regards to your tirade against Vultima, that was reaching man; you're thinking about things that are not even there. Basically it seemed to me and the rest of audience here that, you overreacted against Vultima, he wasn't (trying) to be a dick and he wasn't trolling you. It seemed he was genuinely trying to address the issue at hand: the ditch camp and why. But then I read your out of left field massive retort(s) and I'm like WOOOOOOW. 

That's what I mean by overreaching. Makes sense, right? We all caught up here? OK. 

Back to Hourglass vs Viagra hill/ditch camp. Make them both the same, right? ban the ditch camp? Its annoying in the same sens as Hillcamp so why not make the same ban here? Right?

Edited July 11, 2018 by DoMiNaNtHuNtEr

[Iran]

Nigeria is a fun map but not that well balanced and just a bit too open.

Hourglass needs agt and obelisk disabled with rebuyable minor base defences (turrets and GTs)

Edited August 29, 2018 by shaitan

[XpZFuzzy]

The only difference I see in Nigeria and Hourglass is that hourglass has defenses in front-center of each other bases. AGT and the Obby are right in the center and tanks being on the hill which takes a disadvantages of the reach of AGT and Obby in certain spots. While Nigeria has defenses on the other side of the ditch. 

I'm honestly abit curious why Snow isn't in the discussion due to the fact that Snow feels almost like Hourglass, just with snow and a ditch instead of a hill. However the map is abit smaller than Hourglass, which doesn't include base defenses.