Balance

[He4dSh0t]

The follow up to numbers kept by itai and using numbers I kept track of myself

the changes are not crazy
increase price of artys by 50
remove sbh c4 on all non base d maps
on city/city-flying stanks should cost 1250

On gdi side of things
Meds reduced by 25
 

this alone should provide a small 5-10% swing in most games

 

[Itai795]

I strongly agree with balancing city flying (city is hardly played). I thought of reducing stank speed by some %. Something needs to be done.

Also increase arty cost by 50 is worth a shot.

I don't know about removing sbh c4s even on non base defense maps. I think it's a bit too much, but worth discussing.

[He4dSh0t]

5 minutes ago, Itai795 said:

I strongly agree with balancing city flying (city is hardly played). I thought of reducing stank speed by some %. Something needs to be done.

Also increase arty cost by 50 is worth a shot.

I don't know about removing sbh c4s even on non base defense maps. I think it's a bit too much, but worth discussing.

When you look at how nod wins on most  maps when they are gridlocked or slightly behind its the edge of the sbh to nuke already let alone just 3 to kill a building

[trunkskgb]

17 minutes ago, He4dSh0t said:

When you look at how nod wins on most  maps when they are gridlocked or slightly behind its the edge of the sbh to nuke already let alone just 3 to kill a building

Pretty much describes how Nod should be played. They are about stealth & deception. Seems normal to me lol

[He4dSh0t]

3 hours ago, trunkskgb said:

Pretty much describes how Nod should be played. They are about stealth & deception. Seems normal to me lol

except win rates for nod in mara with min 10ppl in game have a win rate of 55%+ every map

[nameismud]

6 hours ago, He4dSh0t said:

The follow up to numbers kept by itai and using numbers I kept track of myself

the changes are not crazy
increase price of artys by 50
remove sbh c4 on all non base d maps
on city/city-flying stanks should cost 1250

On gdi side of things
Meds reduced by 25
 

this alone should provide a small 5-10% swing in most games

 

These sound like very small changes. If we could address why people are so terrible that would be great.

[trunkskgb]

10 hours ago, He4dSh0t said:

except win rates for nod in mara with min 10ppl in game have a win rate of 55%+ every map

A 5% win rate doesn’t need changes. If it was something crazy like Nod wins 90% of the time, then yeah I think a discussion would take place.

That being said, a difference of 5% comes down to how GDI plays, who is on that team in those maps. 
 

I’ve been on both sides of that coin recently (videos to prove), and it’s gone both ways. Why? Teamwork on Nod and GDI not playing a 10v10 game the way they needed to. I don’t think people realize that.

[Mikey]

I agree 5% is negligible, wouldn't be wise to make changes for such small amounts

[He4dSh0t]

7 hours ago, trunkskgb said:

A 5% win rate doesn’t need changes. If it was something crazy like Nod wins 90% of the time, then yeah I think a discussion would take place.

That being said, a difference of 5% comes down to how GDI plays, who is on that team in those maps. 
 

I’ve been on both sides of that coin recently (videos to prove), and it’s gone both ways. Why? Teamwork on Nod and GDI not playing a 10v10 game the way they needed to. I don’t think people realize that.

That is every map though.

All the numbers I have shows nod winning over 55% on EVERY map  and yes some maps are in heavily more skewed towards nod
It is why it should be balanced its easy changes

[He4dSh0t]

17 hours ago, nameismud said:

These sound like very small changes. If we could address why people are so terrible that would be great.

Thats going to the mystery ... People like matenone are to far gone 

[Itai795]

It's not 5%, mara rates are 56-44. That's 12% and is not negligible.

The statistics don't lie either. Of course if GDI has better players than Nod, GDI are more likely to win, we are not talking about 40% difference, players do count. But when teams have the same "players quality", Nod has a better chance to win (56% on mara). Only when GDI is slightly better, the odds are 50-50. Nod has a systematic advantage.

It's not only about what team wins, it's also about how. City flying? going to be a stank rush win.

[nameismud]

9 hours ago, Itai795 said:

It's not 5%, mara rates are 56-44. That's 12% and is not negligible.

The statistics don't lie either. Of course if GDI has better players than Nod, GDI are more likely to win, we are not talking about 40% difference, players do count. But when teams have the same "players quality", Nod has a better chance to win (56% on mara). Only when GDI is slightly better, the odds are 50-50. Nod has a systematic advantage.

It's not only about what team wins, it's also about how. City flying? going to be a stank rush win.

Yes, stealth is OP. Requires GDI to camp, or rush cohesively. Also teched arties are pretty unbeatable if you don't have a good team. A lot of wins result in GDI not caring about searching for stanks.

[Forithow]

I'd say buff MRLS slightly, make their rockets faster (like AGT rocket travel speed) or have a little bit more splash damage. Their rockets are slower and more visible than arty's missiles. You can easily dodge a mrls rocket, whereas arty has huge splash damage, so harder to dodge. (I know that MRLS rockets can home in, but you can easily just hide behind an object or more quick enough for it to hit something on the way there) - I would also suggest to make them rotatable turrets on the MRLS, but it may not necessarily be a buff? Also in a 1v1 situation, an arty will most likely take out a MRLS before the MRLS could take out the arty, especially if they're both being repaired, the arty can kill the rep because of their massive splash damage and then the mrls is pretty much screwed.

There have been instances where GDI can win against a good Nod team on nod-based maps like City_Flying like when we did an established orca rush and won against Nod before they could have their stanks reach GDI base, so it isn't always necessarily because of the map or the vehicles that were used, but more likely the players themselves. There are certain maps where GDI definitely had an advantage, like Deth_River before arties + Mrls were locked out (MRLS had a huge advantage over any other vehs on that map) etc.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Forithow

[He4dSh0t]

7 hours ago, Forithow said:

I'd say buff MRLS slightly, make their rockets faster (like AGT rocket travel speed) or have a little bit more splash damage. Their rockets are slower and more visible than arty's missiles. You can easily dodge a mrls rocket, whereas arty has huge splash damage, so harder to dodge. (I know that MRLS rockets can home in, but you can easily just hide behind an object or more quick enough for it to hit something on the way there) - I would also suggest to make them rotatable turrets on the MRLS, but it may not necessarily be a buff? Also in a 1v1 situation, an arty will most likely take out a MRLS before the MRLS could take out the arty, especially if they're both being repaired, the arty can kill the rep because of their massive splash damage and then the mrls is pretty much screwed.

There have been instances where GDI can win against a good Nod team on nod-based maps like City_Flying like when we did an established orca rush and won against Nod before they could have their stanks reach GDI base, so it isn't always necessarily because of the map or the vehicles that were used, but more likely the players themselves. There are certain maps where GDI definitely had an advantage, like Deth_River before arties + Mrls were locked out (MRLS had a huge advantage over any other vehs on that map) etc.

I mean sure, 

My adjustments were just minor tweaks that wouldnt mean that gdi just starts swinging their dicks all day at nod but it starts making the game more competitive. Mrls should have rotatable turrets there was a point when artys couldn't but that's not the case.

this also isnt about the remember that one time this gdi team won, how many games on lets say islands or walls that gdi was just semi ahead only for sbhes to just insta win for nod?
by increasing arty by 50 (leaving mrl price same) and decrease med by 25 would be a small change but would make a slight difference

[trunkskgb]

@Forithow@He4dSh0t
A version of City already exists (made back in the mid 2000s) where units were tweaked to improve GDI's chances for winning on City (flying), including increased damage & homing capability of the MRLS's rockets.

That being said, do you (everyone who reads this) think the statistics mentioned here take in account people who use the !swap command when they are getting beat? Does it take into account people who make squads? I think some of these server features skew the statistics. Just last week on GDI on Field (recorded)...we had a decent team of folks "trying to take" the field, but were struggling. What happened? Somehow they went on Nod's side. If Nod ended up winning that map, I think instances like that should be taken into affect.

I'm only against said changes because this is like the 500th server in Renegade, to make suggestions like these to improve game play, and it all starts with City Flying.

This is also only ever been an issue on servers that ran stock maps and had very little server side enhancements.

 

[Mikey]

5 hours ago, trunkskgb said:

@Forithow@He4dSh0t
A version of City already exists (made back in the mid 2000s) where units were tweaked to improve GDI's chances for winning on City (flying), including increased damage & homing capability of the MRLS's rockets.

That being said, do you (everyone who reads this) think the statistics mentioned here take in account people who use the !swap command when they are getting beat? Does it take into account people who make squads? I think some of these server features skew the statistics. Just last week on GDI on Field (recorded)...we had a decent team of folks "trying to take" the field, but were struggling. What happened? Somehow they went on Nod's side. If Nod ended up winning that map, I think instances like that should be taken into affect.

I'm only against said changes because this is like the 500th server in Renegade, to make suggestions like these to improve game play, and it all starts with City Flying.

This is also only ever been an issue on servers that ran stock maps and had very little server side enhancements.

 

You hit the nail on the head, couldn't agree more. I feel like in the long term it does more damage than good to start changing one thing here and one thing there before you know it, it's Kamuix server al over again.

[trunkskgb]

4 hours ago, Mikey said:

You hit the nail on the head, couldn't agree more. I feel like in the long term it does more damage than good to start changing one thing here and one thing there before you know it, it's Kamuix server al over again.

I'm totes open for change, but unfortunately this isn't a new subject. People just need to learn how to play a certain on different maps. I also forgot to mention...what happens if these changes do go into effect, and Nod gets nerfed? How many people you think would switch there "preferred side" to GDI. I would.

Then all the good players would statistically end up on GDI, and Nod would be full of noobs who don't know how to use that feature, and then your stats would show GDI pulling ahead on the win rates. :)

[Iran]

just remove stanks on city fly

[Forithow]

4 hours ago, trunkskgb said:

I'm totes open for change, but unfortunately this isn't a new subject. People just need to learn how to play a certain on different maps. I also forgot to mention...what happens if these changes do go into effect, and Nod gets nerfed? How many people you think would switch there "preferred side" to GDI. I would.

Then all the good players would statistically end up on GDI, and Nod would be full of noobs who don't know how to use that feature, and then your stats would show GDI pulling ahead on the win rates. :)

Yeah, personally I think map balance is more important than having to change individual stuff like MRLS or Stanks etc. like nod tends to win more on big maps like City_Flying despite being fully symmetrical on both sides where many spots for stealth units to hide and avoid GDI units etc, and then you have Deth_River where GDI wins a lot more often (before MRLs and Arty got removed).

But yeah, it's difficult to have a good map balance when each team has their own advantages that decides who wins the majority of the time. 

[N0]

Renegade is serious business, Nod is literally better in every scenario unless its like mass meds or mammies 

[trunkskgb]

42 minutes ago, Fr3nZy said:

Renegade is serious business, Nod is literally better in every scenario unless its like mass meds or mammies 

In reality, any team/game/map with stealthed vehicles should come out on top. Nod's win percentage is as it should be. If you don't spot stealth tanks early, it may be too late. The reason GDI wins less, are when a random team is put together and no effort is put into controlling the area of play, or having an offense it all. This isn't a new game, and stealth tanks aren't new lol.

No one ever complained about stealth tanks in the RTS games. Magically, it's only a problem in the FPS world. I wonder why that is haha!

[He4dSh0t]

9 hours ago, trunkskgb said:

I'm totes open for change, but unfortunately this isn't a new subject. People just need to learn how to play a certain on different maps. I also forgot to mention...what happens if these changes do go into effect, and Nod gets nerfed? How many people you think would switch there "preferred side" to GDI. I would.

Then all the good players would statistically end up on GDI, and Nod would be full of noobs who don't know how to use that feature, and then your stats would show GDI pulling ahead on the win rates. :)

K that is brain dead... 

How old is this game? Yet we still have fucking dog shit players who will not get better or do not want to get better
doing the smallest amount of changes will not affect player base since I cant see people going off on "God dam I gota fuck my sister over this dam small price increase of an arty..."

In no way is this "nerf" going to make nod weaker than gdi its still going to be stronger but its not going to be your dad beating you with jumper cables because you're gdi 
Terrible fallacy of logic on the stats, the idea is to show gdi pulling up some where more than what it has been doing. considered I played way more than you in 2021 and yes I have the answer to SWAP it didn't affect any major games all my videos show most swaps occurred late game when one would assume the game was already teetering. What does affect the game outcomes? Squads, games that had squads [1 team with a squad verse other team with no squad] regardless of map showed squad team winning 67%

IA keeps up the numbers and isn't ren, mpf every now and then gets some games but rencorner isn't vanilla and that's great but doing these small changes and even other different small changes doesn't make it any less different than from where it is now
Examples of this? Well glad you asked son
Rxd maps far from vanilla and technically most rencorner maps
the crates
the fan maps

I can kick a can all day

[trunkskgb]

5 minutes ago, He4dSh0t said:

K that is brain dead... 

How old is this game? Yet we still have fucking dog shit players who will not get better or do not want to get better
doing the smallest amount of changes will not affect player base since I cant see people going off on "God dam I gota fuck my sister over this dam small price increase of an arty..."

In no way is this "nerf" going to make nod weaker than gdi its still going to be stronger but its not going to be your dad beating you with jumper cables because you're gdi 
Terrible fallacy of logic on the stats, the idea is to show gdi pulling up some where more than what it has been doing. considered I played way more than you in 2021 and yes I have the answer to SWAP it didn't affect any major games all my videos show most swaps occurred late game when one would assume the game was already teetering. What does affect the game outcomes? Squads, games that had squads [1 team with a squad verse other team with no squad] regardless of map showed squad team winning 67%

IA keeps up the numbers and isn't ren, mpf every now and then gets some games but rencorner isn't vanilla and that's great but doing these small changes and even other different small changes doesn't make it any less different than from where it is now
Examples of this? Well glad you asked son
Rxd maps far from vanilla and technically most rencorner maps
the crates
the fan maps

I can kick a can all day

Then let your suggestions have a chance then. History has shown that small changes end up being a deal, and often lead down a negative path. I'd hate to see one the last surviving servers go down, because people complained about the function of a tank that's 20+ years old.

[N0]

bring back arty shake and ob walking and engis w shotties

[Itai795]

20 hours ago, trunkskgb said:

[1] That being said, do you (everyone who reads this) think the statistics mentioned here take in account people who use the !swap command when they are getting beat? Does it take into account people who make squads? I think some of these server features skew the statistics. [2]Just last week on GDI on Field (recorded)...we had a decent team of folks "trying to take" the field, but were struggling. What happened? Somehow they went on Nod's side. If Nod ended up winning that map, I think instances like that should be taken into affect.

1. No it doesn't taken into statistics

But I just don't agree it matters:

a. Squads: The number of squads is negligible. It used to be an issue when squads had 5 squad members. Now it's 3 and auto-disbands after 2-3 matches. Which also caused squads to be much less popular.

b. Team switching:

• I believe only very few players, if at all, switching from GDI to Nod due to Nod's better statistics. I don't think I know any player that asks to switch even 50% of the times he's on GDI.
• Out of the people who do switch, most of them are not the among the best players (except April).
• If it does happen, it's mostly towards the end of the match.
• If they switch at the beginning, I think it's more likely due to players in each team.

I'm working on a more elaborated data logger, logging team switches or even !rtc's might be interesting and I can add that. But even if it (logger) is going to be ready soon, it will take some time to collect enough data.

2. I really doubt that people purposely messing around only to wait for an opportunity to be able to switch to the opposing team. It's field, it was just lack of team play from GDI.

 

On the other hand, I am worried too about a slippery slope, and small changes will lead to bigger. On the third hand, city is just too biased in my opinion and specific changes to this map needs to be made.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Itai795