Balance

[nameismud]

2 hours ago, He4dSh0t said:

K that is brain dead... 

How old is this game? Yet we still have fucking dog shit players who will not get better or do not want to get better
doing the smallest amount of changes will not affect player base since I cant see people going off on "God dam I gota fuck my sister over this dam small price increase of an arty..."

In no way is this "nerf" going to make nod weaker than gdi its still going to be stronger but its not going to be your dad beating you with jumper cables because you're gdi 
Terrible fallacy of logic on the stats, the idea is to show gdi pulling up some where more than what it has been doing. considered I played way more than you in 2021 and yes I have the answer to SWAP it didn't affect any major games all my videos show most swaps occurred late game when one would assume the game was already teetering. What does affect the game outcomes? Squads, games that had squads [1 team with a squad verse other team with no squad] regardless of map showed squad team winning 67%

IA keeps up the numbers and isn't ren, mpf every now and then gets some games but rencorner isn't vanilla and that's great but doing these small changes and even other different small changes doesn't make it any less different than from where it is now
Examples of this? Well glad you asked son
Rxd maps far from vanilla and technically most rencorner maps
the crates
the fan maps

I can kick a can all day

Can you explain how decreasing the cost of a tank by 25 will really make much difference in the server? You generate 2-3 credits a second and people already don't buy tanks as it is.

[He4dSh0t]

38 minutes ago, nameismud said:

Can you explain how decreasing the cost of a tank by 25 will really make much difference in the server? You generate 2-3 credits a second and people already don't buy tanks as it is.

by meds going to 775 and artys going up 50 does make a small change not a massive one but it changes the rates of arty:med plus mrl being 50 cheaper than mrl will still offset that 
Look at yuris revenge for example before cncnet balance patches etc
grizzlies and rhinos were almost made at a 1 to 1 rate even though rhinos were more money 1 rhino can just about kill 2 grizzlies so the patch just slowed down the rate at which the rhino was made so now blood fued just isnt 
conyard - pp- bar - ref - wf - sell con and win with rhinos anymore

[nameismud]

34 minutes ago, He4dSh0t said:

by meds going to 775 and artys going up 50 does make a small change not a massive one but it changes the rates of arty:med plus mrl being 50 cheaper than mrl will still offset that 
Look at yuris revenge for example before cncnet balance patches etc
grizzlies and rhinos were almost made at a 1 to 1 rate even though rhinos were more money 1 rhino can just about kill 2 grizzlies so the patch just slowed down the rate at which the rhino was made so now blood fued just isnt 
conyard - pp- bar - ref - wf - sell con and win with rhinos anymore

I'd say go for it then. Just out of curiosity. 

[Vexano]

The way I see it, it's all about the team play and team work, sure nod has stanks on city and yes 3 sbhs can take down a building. but try to sneak in a GDI base with a nice GDI team (i wish you good luck cause you'll need it). I am just saying if you start to nerf shit. what happens to the game it self ? Will we still be playing the same Ren as we all know i wonder? I hear a lot of fustration about stanks but like Trunks said here. I agree it's part of nod , just like GDI has mammies and mrls ect. I just think if you start to change all the things and nerf them on certain maps, it will confuse some people. And I also think Ren is all about team play and how and what tactis you use and when they are in action. People like the stronger players among us win more because of good team knowing what to do. you can ballance and nerf all you want. but in the end the team with the "more/most expierianced older players" Wins. and the only way the "non exprierianced/ New players" among us will learn to get good and better is by time and playing like we stronger players all have been through ourselfs for years. That's my view on this topic guys. 

Kind Regards iB-Ventus

[Guest rackz]

On 2/6/2022 at 11:04 PM, He4dSh0t said:

The follow up to numbers kept by itai and using numbers I kept track of myself

the changes are not crazy
increase price of artys by 50
remove sbh c4 on all non base d maps
on city/city-flying stanks should cost 1250

On gdi side of things
Meds reduced by 25
 

this alone should provide a small 5-10% swing in most games

 

Just remove He4dSh0t, easy fix. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by rackz

[trunkskgb]

15 hours ago, Itai795 said:

1. No it doesn't taken into statistics

But I just don't agree it matters:

a. Squads: The number of squads is negligible. It used to be an issue when squads had 5 squad members. Now it's 3 and auto-disbands after 2-3 matches. Which also caused squads to be much less popular.

b. Team switching:

• I believe only very few players, if at all, switching from GDI to Nod due to Nod's better statistics. I don't think I know any player that asks to switch even 50% of the times he's on GDI.
• Out of the people who do switch, most of them are not the among the best players (except April).
• If it does happen, it's mostly towards the end of the match.
• If they switch at the beginning, I think it's more likely due to players in each team.

I'm working on a more elaborated data logger, logging team switches or even !rtc's might be interesting and I can add that. But even if it (logger) is going to be ready soon, it will take some time to collect enough data.

2. I really doubt that people purposely messing around only to wait for an opportunity to be able to switch to the opposing team. It's field, it was just lack of team play from GDI.

 

On the other hand, I am worried too about a slippery slope, and small changes will lead to bigger. On the third hand, city is just too biased in my opinion and specific changes to this map needs to be made.

It's funny that City keeps making in the discussion. There are other versions, City2, City3 AND alternate version of the just City Flying.

It's also interesting (from a design standpoint) that on a map with narrow paths...

Hourglass: people don't rage about this that much. There's really nowhere for stanks to hide lol
City Flying: wide paths, large field to hide and gather...people complain
Glacier Flying: Not a real big map, but because there are so many options for both sides, it's never really an issue.

Weird how that works! On maps larger than City, GDI can use the size to it's advantage and sneak into the base, being stealthy, even though they are not stealth.

[trunkskgb]

15 hours ago, Itai795 said:

1. No it doesn't taken into statistics

But I just don't agree it matters:

a. Squads: The number of squads is negligible. It used to be an issue when squads had 5 squad members. Now it's 3 and auto-disbands after 2-3 matches. Which also caused squads to be much less popular.

b. Team switching:

• I believe only very few players, if at all, switching from GDI to Nod due to Nod's better statistics. I don't think I know any player that asks to switch even 50% of the times he's on GDI.
• Out of the people who do switch, most of them are not the among the best players (except April).
• If it does happen, it's mostly towards the end of the match.
• If they switch at the beginning, I think it's more likely due to players in each team.

I'm working on a more elaborated data logger, logging team switches or even !rtc's might be interesting and I can add that. But even if it (logger) is going to be ready soon, it will take some time to collect enough data.

2. I really doubt that people purposely messing around only to wait for an opportunity to be able to switch to the opposing team. It's field, it was just lack of team play from GDI.

 

On the other hand, I am worried too about a slippery slope, and small changes will lead to bigger. On the third hand, city is just too biased in my opinion and specific changes to this map needs to be made.

It's funny that City keeps making in the discussion. There are other versions, City2, City3 AND alternate version of the just City Flying.

It's also interesting (from a design standpoint) that on a map with narrow paths...

Hourglass: people don't rage about this that much. There's really nowhere for stanks to hide lol
City Flying: wide paths, large field to hide and gather...people complain
Glacier Flying: Not a real big map, but because there are so many options for both sides, it's never really an issue.

Weird how that works! On maps larger than City, GDI can use the size to it's advantage and sneak into the base, being stealthy, even though they are not stealth.

[Guest rackz]

1 hour ago, trunkskgb said:

 

Hourglass: people don't rage about this that much. There's really nowhere for stanks to hide lol
 

Hillcamp is the main reason peeps hate it lol

[He4dSh0t]

2 hours ago, trunkskgb said:

It's funny that City keeps making in the discussion. There are other versions, City2, City3 AND alternate version of the just City Flying.

It's also interesting (from a design standpoint) that on a map with narrow paths...

Hourglass: people don't rage about this that much. There's really nowhere for stanks to hide lol
City Flying: wide paths, large field to hide and gather...people complain
Glacier Flying: Not a real big map, but because there are so many options for both sides, it's never really an issue.

Weird how that works! On maps larger than City, GDI can use the size to it's advantage and sneak into the base, being stealthy, even though they are not stealth.

My stats differ my itai because I only logged games I only played in and counted games of only 10+ players
nod wins hourglass over 70% of the time [mara + aow]
glacier is one of gdi best map in server at 47% when you factor in aow 
and no bigger the map has proven time and time again nod wins... mpf even shows that as well
anecdotal evidence is not evidence and does not have a solid foundation for fact or prove of such
back to other version of city... so to back track making balances - boo no that wont be ren but lets add some obsecure fan map that most people havent played
I never played or heard of city2,3, citymatenoneandbeyond and well my honest opinion they probably are 100% matenone dogshit tier maps

[trunkskgb]

1 hour ago, He4dSh0t said:

My stats differ my itai because I only logged games I only played in and counted games of only 10+ players
nod wins hourglass over 70% of the time [mara + aow]
glacier is one of gdi best map in server at 47% when you factor in aow 
and no bigger the map has proven time and time again nod wins... mpf even shows that as well
anecdotal evidence is not evidence and does not have a solid foundation for fact or prove of such
back to other version of city... so to back track making balances - boo no that wont be ren but lets add some obsecure fan map that most people havent played
I never played or heard of city2,3, citymatenoneandbeyond and well my honest opinion they probably are 100% matenone dogshit tier maps

City2 isn't bad, you should look for it and test it out. It's like an "L" shaped version of City. That's the best way I can describe it. I don't know even know if I remember anymore which version had the increased strength/homing missiles of MRLS. I guess I could find out.

Do what you guys want, but I would suggest trying these alternate version 1st, since the work has already been done. If none of them pan out, then make a City_RxD and nerf some of Nod's units.

[trunkskgb]

@He4dSh0t

short clip of the alternative versions of City Flying. Maybe a simple swap would be worth testing out. 
City (Versions)
https://youtu.be/fxQj8LDmhxc

[He4dSh0t]

6 hours ago, trunkskgb said:

@He4dSh0t

short clip of the alternative versions of City Flying. Maybe a simple swap would be worth testing out. 
City (Versions)
https://youtu.be/fxQj8LDmhxc

So to go back previously

Balancing changes the game etc etc....
but this version does not?
That version will not go over well in server

[AprilWar]

City2B is one of my fav maps (aside from mpf recons and tow vees), its accessible through dblaney's repository

[trunkskgb]

On 2/12/2022 at 4:25 PM, He4dSh0t said:

So to go back previously

Balancing changes the game etc etc....
but this version does not?
That version will not go over well in server

City Flying IS a Nod map, and it should be, it's big and wide open. These changes just add some more tank options and some extra defenses to GDI, to help keep Nod at bay.

That being said, before some does extra work to nerf Nod, why not try a map that maybe will boost GDI? The work is done, could be worth a shot.

Or, just replace it with City2DB or another map entirely. I heard of another cityscape map...somewhere...Iron something? ;)

[Fr3nchFry]

legalize flaming apc

[C123]

I think as others have mentioned, balancing is a slippery slope. It's easy to propose small changes but it's hard to actually estimate their effect. I think these are pretty reasonable, but it's hard to say without testing. The arty price increase for example could be a game changer early on for some maps.

If there is one thing I think is just legit broken, it's the ridiculously low price of the SBH. Just the threat of SBHs means GDI has to worry about nukes, extra mining, not leaving unmanned vehicles, etc. For just 450 credits it's arguably the most valuable infantry unit in the game, with really no balancing unit on GDI (Patch is a joke). At least with tanks, GDI has some theoretical advantages in firepower + armor. With infantry, the SBH makes Nod objectively better on all maps, in all scenarios. I think you could easily double the SBH cost to 900 and Nod would still have an advantage on most maps.

[trunkskgb]

15 hours ago, C123 said:

I think as others have mentioned, balancing is a slippery slope. It's easy to propose small changes but it's hard to actually estimate their effect. I think these are pretty reasonable, but it's hard to say without testing. The arty price increase for example could be a game changer early on for some maps.

If there is one thing I think is just legit broken, it's the ridiculously low price of the SBH. Just the threat of SBHs means GDI has to worry about nukes, extra mining, not leaving unmanned vehicles, etc. For just 450 credits it's arguably the most valuable infantry unit in the game, with really no balancing unit on GDI (Patch is a joke). At least with tanks, GDI has some theoretical advantages in firepower + armor. With infantry, the SBH makes Nod objectively better on all maps, in all scenarios. I think you could easily double the SBH cost to 900 and Nod would still have an advantage on most maps.

I don't see any changes being made to be honest. Trying to adjust the balance of a game is a hit or miss. The fact that Nod has SBH's is a threat yes, but how many times do you see people mine the base, and just walk away. People think mining a building can be left uncheck. You have to have some sort of defense, mines only do so much.

Removing or replacing a map that heavily favors one team, is sometimes the best thing you can do.

You also mention an increase in Artillery. Look at Snow. Nod has no APC, and Artillery's cost 700 I think instead of 450? Nod really has to hunker down on that map at the start, but if GDI comes fast & hard, it can be game over real fast.

[Guest rackz]

funny, snow and sand both suck and both are named by a biome lol

[He4dSh0t]

On 2/27/2022 at 1:28 AM, rackz said:

funny, snow and sand both suck and both are named by a biome lol

>named by a biome 

The type of genius post I expect from matenone however... you fit that as well I guess.

[Guest rackz]

mimimimi

[Guest rackz]

i thought you're mature, but your'e not

[ArcticPrism]

Necro post  I guess but on the topic of balance can we look at infantry units that are completely or nearly useless? I think infantry are easier to adjust without causing massive GDI vs NOD balance swings.  Not sure if it's realistic for a Renegade server to pull off but the A Path Beyond mod had something I thought was a good idea. That is, low tier infantry you can buy with credits without a Barracks.

I think the main problem with most infantry comes down to 2 problems:

-Too weak at the role they are meant to fill.

Basic rocket soldiers for example cost too much to rush with early on, do little actual damage to anything and the rocket is so slow you can barely hit vehicles(homing would help a lot). Gunner is way better but even he rarely gets purchased outside of an attempt to Gunner Rush on Mesa. Patch is just the NOD laser chaingun except he doesn't do any damage to tanks and his shots have travel time. 

-Snipers are oppressive.

There is no reliable infantry based answer to snipers except more snipers. You have very little chance of beating a sniper with any other infantry in almost any situation unless the sniper is bad and can't hit anything(like me). Exception would be PIC or Rave because they can instantly kill with head shots too.

Not suggesting snipers be nerfed. I just think other infantry should be buffed with reduced cost, effectiveness or availability(being able to buy without Hand/Bar).

 

Infantry I personally think should be looked at :

-GDI/NOD Officer

Expensive for just being slightly better basic soldier.

-Basic Rocket soldier

Low damage, expensive, can't really hit vehicles due to slow projectile and no homing.

-GDI Sydney

Low damage, expensive, projectile too slow to reliably hit infantry except at close range.

-GDI Patch

Just a Nod laser chaingun but does no damage to tanks.

-Mobius/Mendoza

Low range, doesn't do enough damage to buildings, especially the exteriors. Expensive for how niche they are. 

 

Edited February 2, 2024 by ArcticPrism

[Goztow]

Tbh with the unlimited ammo I think some infantry are already very powerful. While it's true a couple of units are never used, overall I don't think there's a problem. 

[Guest rackz]

A 24/7 Sniper complains about balance? You´re the one not doing teamplay. You should know, you dont need a driver license to drive tanks in Renegade. Seems like all over the years you still dont know how to play that game.

 

Also learn to read, then you understand Goztows tags.

Edited February 3, 2024 by rackz

[ArcticPrism]

2 hours ago, rackz said:

A 24/7 Sniper complains about balance? You´re the one not doing teamplay. You should know, you dont need a driver license to drive tanks in Renegade. Seems like all over the years you still dont know how to play that game.

 

Also learn to read, then you understand Goztows tags.

I'm not sure who you are talking to lol