The Need for the Implementation of Netiquette Due to Foul Behavior

[TwinStar99]

Hello,

I was told to make a post about this topic about foul language and therefore I recommend we need a proper netiquette.
Due to players in game unnecessarily using foul language or rather discriminatory insults, I don't feel comfortable playing in the Rencorner server. 

For example, some players using extremely disparaging and abusive words like "f4gg0t". I hate seeing that word typed out or even hearing it. Yes, the word may mean different in Europe or some places, but in America and for most Gay men, it is and has been used as a derogatory word to defame gay men, put them down, bully them, and discriminate against them. Regardless of whomever says that they are okay with the word, there are those who are not. Just like many of the words and behaviors you do not allow now where for some they are okay and some they are not. We need to put a stop not only to these few words but to bad behavior in general. 

I request the leaders of this community to put a stop to bad behavior. One solution is to implement netiquette. I'm sure so many people would appreciate it. It is not acceptable and absolutely not okay to allow bad behavior just because you will "lose" players and just because "that's how gamers are" and "that's how it is on the internet". No. Not okay at all. The misconceptions of are not the reality. People will easily acclimate to changes especially if you enforce them in good and strategic ways. The ironic thing is, we are all already acclimated to good netiquette behavior due to real life situations be it in social, educational, or job settings. It is also not okay that unless someone uses the word multiple times, then it is not considered abuse. Some people are smarter than that and will manipulate the situation and use different spelling or whatever to get past the rules.

A few years ago, the bad behavior (toxicity or whatever you want to call it) made me stop playing Renegade for a few years. I even changed my username. I came back and barely notice a difference. It makes me not want to play in Rencorner. Enough is enough. That's when I wanted to make my own server. I did learn how to make my own server and am implementing netiquette concepts. I still go to many different servers to play. I play in like 8 different servers right now. However, many people come to Rencorner's server to play and I do too. The more people there are in a community, then the more the need for netiquette concepts.

You have to stop this somewhere and at some point in time, and that time is now. I have heard that this community has slowly been "pushing the boundaries" for better behavior, but that's not good enough. It's been a very long time coming, too long might I add, that this netiquette should have been implemented. Netiquette has been around for decades. This is not new. I have some resources from a simple Google search below for anyone to look at as a starting point, and if you need help in gathering or implementing this concept, I am available. Reach out to me on Discord. 

Definition of Netiquette: 
https://www.britannica.com/topic/netiquette

Simple Google search on Netiquette shows these results:
https://coursedesign.colostate.edu/obj/corerulesnet.html
https://www.verywellmind.com/ten-rules-of-netiquette-22285
https://www.rasmussen.edu/student-experience/college-life/netiquette-guidelines-every-online-student-needs-to-know/

Dragonade's Essentials.ini has bad word filters which could be a good implementation. It warns someone about their word usage before kicking them out. They are able to come back in though, but it would not make it fun being kicked out, and therefore the mods would be able to moderate. IRC scripts can also check for certain behaviors.

Mentioning mods makes me think about the fact that some mods in Rencorner also have such behavior. They have been approved recently even though they have such behavior. That is not okay.

I ask for people to support this idea.

Sincerely,

TwinStar99

[moononrenegade]

Honestly I kinda agree, although they aren't using it as a way to insult gay people it still shouldn't be thrown around. Same with "retard", my little sister has autism so that word gets under my skin tbh. We should step our foot down on certain words but completely blocking cuss words as a whole will kill the chat IMO. I can bring it up with the other staff or just wait until they see this so we can see what they think.

[moononrenegade]

Just now, ExEric3 said:

Best sollution ignoring some people because its never ending story. Punish all player just for some stupid kid will cause more people leave ren. I really dont see point setup some filter for 50 players.

He's asking for a few words to be taken out, not that big of a deal. No ones gonna leave because they blacklist the word "faggot" XD.

[moononrenegade]

5 minutes ago, ExEric3 said:

Its internet game. Usually you dont know who is on other side. You really think if you blacklist some word "faggot" that 5 trolls ingame doesnt make some another alternative? You will maintain that list? I think for this exist mute/warn/ban system.

If you can't handle a word being blacklisted you need to grow the fuck up. We should not cater to the trolls because "it will kill the game". If the sole reason they are in the game to be a nuisance and a ass, why do we want them there in the first place?

[moononrenegade]

Exactly, its a game not a chat room. Yet we should still keep the chat clean. I would rather listen to Twinstar then keeping the words in for the trolls to use. I get it, you wanna keep on using the word "faggot" but other people don't enjoy the word. Rather cater to the needs of someone else then the people who don't contribute to the game

 

[Itai795]

I generally agree with everything you said, TwinStar.

I think this needs to move to the Renegade forum, I think Minecraft and Terraria have other policies (as they have younger crowd).

My points:

• Having one player (and I'm sure there are more than one) who feels so uncomfort to the point he doesn't want to play anymore is worse than the "comfort" of people who uses foul language.
• I don't care about "internet culture", there is no good reason for people to behave here differently than the way they behave in real life with their friends, colleagues and community.
• The same way we don't tolerate racism in any way, we shouldn't tolerate homophobic behaviour. Similarly to how we don't restrict our racism intolerance to the use of the n word, but we generalize it to any other racist slurs or behaviour, we can do the same with homophobic behaviour and not restrict it to the word faggot.
• We don't need bad language filters or automated messages. This feels childish to me. Everyone here is an adult. Mods have the tools to enforce the policy.

 

1 hour ago, ExEric3 said:

Best sollution ignoring some people because its never ending story. Punish all player just for some stupid kid will cause more people leave ren. I really dont see point setup some filter for 50 players.

They are not going to leave, as they didn't leave when we decided at some point to not tolerate other things (racism for example).

I don't see it as a punishment at all, certainly not to all the players.

 

1 hour ago, moononrenegade said:

Exactly, its a game not a chat room. Yet we should still keep the chat clean. I would rather listen to Twinstar then keeping the words in for the trolls to use. [1] I get it, you wanna keep on using the word "faggot" but other people don't enjoy the word. [2] Rather cater to the needs of someone else then the people who don't contribute to the game

 

[1] Just to defend Eric here, I don't think I ever saw him uses that word, and he's not defending his right to use it, he defends the right of others.

[2] It's not that they don't contribute to the game, it's about they still will be able to contribute the same way but just without using homophobic language.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Itai795

[TwinStar99]

15 hours ago, moononrenegade said:

Honestly I kinda agree, although they aren't using it as a way to insult gay people it still shouldn't be thrown around. Same with "retard", my little sister has autism so that word gets under my skin tbh. We should step our foot down on certain words but completely blocking cuss words as a whole will kill the chat IMO. I can bring it up with the other staff or just wait until they see this so we can see what they think.

Yes, I agree. The word "retard" is also being looked down upon and therefore being used less. Thank you.

15 hours ago, moononrenegade said:

If you can't handle a word being blacklisted you need to grow the fuck up. We should not cater to the trolls because "it will kill the game". If the sole reason they are in the game to be a nuisance and a ass, why do we want them there in the first place?

This is it! Exactly right here!

15 hours ago, moononrenegade said:

Exactly, its a game not a chat room. Yet we should still keep the chat clean. I would rather listen to Twinstar then keeping the words in for the trolls to use. I get it, you wanna keep on using the word "faggot" but other people don't enjoy the word. Rather cater to the needs of someone else then the people who don't contribute to the game

 

The ironic thing is that people think that the people with bad behavior leaving will cause less players to play Renegade. The reality of the situation is that more players will stay and other players who left because of this toxic behavior will come back.

13 hours ago, Itai795 said:

I generally agree with everything you said, TwinStar.

I think this needs to move to the Renegade forum, I think Minecraft and Terraria have other policies (as they have younger crowd).

My points:

• Having one player (and I'm sure there are more than one) who feels so uncomfort to the point he doesn't want to play anymore is worse than the "comfort" of people who uses foul language.
• I don't care about "internet culture", there is no good reason for people to behave here differently than the way they behave in real life with their friends, colleagues and community.
• The same way we don't tolerate racism in any way, we shouldn't tolerate homophobic behaviour. Similarly to how we don't restrict our racism intolerance to the use of the n word, but we generalize it to any other racist slurs or behaviour, we can do the same with homophobic behaviour and not restrict it to the word faggot.
• We don't need bad language filters or automated messages. This feels childish to me. Everyone here is an adult. Mods have the tools to enforce the policy.

 

They are not going to leave, as they didn't leave when we decided at some point to not tolerate other things (racism for example).

I don't see it as a punishment at all, certainly not to all the players.

 

[1] Just to defend Eric here, I don't think I ever saw him uses that word, and he's not defending his right to use it, he defends the right of others.

[2] It's not that they don't contribute to the game, it's about they still will be able to contribute the same way but just without using homophobic language.

 

Indeed! Thank you for your support!
This was put in the General Forum area that I think is for the entirety of the Rencorner Network. However, if you host other games, then the same policies should be implemented elsewhere to protect all players.

[Itai795]

10 hours ago, TwinStar99 said:

This was put in the General Forum area that I think is for the entirety of the Rencorner Network. However, if you host other games, then the same policies should be implemented elsewhere to protect all players.

I'm not familiar with the Minecraft and Terraris policies, but since their target audience is much younger , I suspect their policies are much stricter.

But more importantly, people attend the Renegade forum much more than this one.

[shaitan]

This won't work so well here for a few reasons. Namely, how are you going to moderate me, because I can(and will) let "faggot/retard" fly in the game. A lot of us do it. When I say faggot/retard, it has nothing to do with homosexual people or handicapped peoples. That's mainly the reason it's not a rule.

This all falls under our targeted harassment rules, which, are easy to spot by seeing patterns. If someone keeps hounding you, calling you a faggot in the game, then that's when it is a problem and will be dealt with.

[masscarriers]

Speaking strictly for Renegade, there's no way it can be enforced. Folks are in their 30s, 40s, 50s... They're mature enough to fly over these petty words. The ones that aren't mature enough are the ones screaming them unfortunately

[N0]

Renegade is serious business, video games hurt my feelings 

[AprilWar]

16 hours ago, shaitan said:

This won't work so well here for a few reasons. Namely, how are you going to moderate me, because I can(and will) let "faggot/retard" fly in the game. A lot of us do it. When I say faggot/retard, it has nothing to do with homosexual people or handicapped peoples. That's mainly the reason it's not a rule.

This all falls under our targeted harassment rules, which, are easy to spot by seeing patterns. If someone keeps hounding you, calling you a faggot in the game, then that's when it is a problem and will be dealt with.

This ^

[Itai795]

On 8/27/2022 at 4:30 PM, shaitan said:

This won't work so well here for a few reasons. Namely, how are you going to moderate me, because I can(and will) let "faggot/retard" fly in the game. A lot of us do it. When I say faggot/retard, it has nothing to do with homosexual people or handicapped peoples. That's mainly the reason it's not a rule.

This all falls under our targeted harassment rules, which, are easy to spot by seeing patterns. If someone keeps hounding you, calling you a faggot in the game, then that's when it is a problem and will be dealt with.

I'm sorry, but what's the big difference between that and racism? Racism can also fall under the harassment rules, but it falls under its own set of rules. I can also imagine people that use the n word but besides that, they are "not racist".

As I said earlier here, same as one probably doesn't shout faggot/retard at people in real life, he/she can restrain himself from typing it (which is easier since it takes longer to type than say it out loud).

 

[shaitan]

As I said; how are you going to moderate ME when I do it? I don't make/enforce rules that I'm going to break, and I will. It'll look stupid if I'm the only one getting away with saying it.

You guys have tried this over the years, it is not going to work, and will never have my backing.

[AprilWar]

5 hours ago, Itai795 said:

I'm sorry, but what's the big difference between that and racism? Racism can also fall under the harassment rules, but it falls under its own set of rules. I can also imagine people that use the n word but besides that, they are "not racist".

As I said earlier here, same as one probably doesn't shout faggot/retard at people in real life, he/she can restrain himself from typing it (which is easier since it takes longer to type than say it out loud).

 

Where does it stop tho. If the rule is going to be lets avoid 'racist' (which we all kinda agree) AND homophobic AND ableist remarks why stop there. Why not keep censoring speech to also ban transphobic, fatphobic, M.A.Phobic, and other groups out there. 

If we keep enforcing this "we are all balloons in a world of pins" mindset, not just the server is going to become a worse place, but @Society. There's nothing better for an individual than growing some thick skin and learning how to brush off jerks or ignorant stuff.

[InspectorGadget]

"There's nothing better for an individual than growing some thick skin and learning how to brush off jerks or ignorant stuff"

i disagree here. would be much better for individuals to grow up in an environment of support, love and care and not one of toxicity and rudeness. if that´s not what they´re surrounded by it´s kind of obvious that it would be better if they have developed some thick skin but not everyone is able to do so.but i think it´s wrong to look at it like it´s some sort of desirable goal or achievement rather than a sad necessity.

 

when it comes to the general discussion shais "i won´t stop doing it so we won´t do it" is just kinda meh to me tbh. both because i´ve got a different opinion the issue and also i think in general it´s suboptimal if you´re basing something like this strongly on your own opinion or behaviour, behaving basically like a dictator. and i know that word is a bit of a stretch here and i don´t want to offend shai, but trying to make a general point i hope you can see. yes it´s your server and you can do whatever you want with it and no one can do anything about it, but it´s a public server and an approach of "how things should be done" from a more objective angle is the way to go in regards to every decision that is made here imo. like if shai hated snipers and changed their price to 10k to avoid them that would be the same logic that you´re applying here. what´s stopping you from trying not using this sort of language? what´s the problem with moderating you? like i don´t think we should outright kick/ban people if they accidentally use a bad word every once in a while so the action from mods had you used such language is telling you to please be more considerate in the future and i don´t see how that´s an issue for anyone, you or the mods.

and i do think there is quite the good case for a netiquette improvement here and i also think it´s not that hard to figure out how far you´ll go with it. it´s not like other games/servers didn´t do exactly that in the past. of course there will the usual candidates trying to create drama in some way, but they´ll try to create drama anyways.  does it make a difference if these people create drama about invisihugging or about the nettiquette or some other bs? i don´t think so. if you´re doing a good one and have good mods enforcing it in a reasonable way i think the server would be better up. of course if the netiquette is unclear or goes way too far/not far enough and there is confusion/lack of care from moderation or overmoderation, it can also make the server worse. but i regard this issue as having more upside than downside and while personally the language in this server doesn´t bother me personally that much as i´m don´t fall in any of the "target groups" nor am i getting into serious fights with other guys, it´s not going unnoticed to me that the language is quite bad at times. people like headshot for instance do use a lot of these homophobic or ableist remarks for no reason whatsoever and i can see why that ruins the ren experience for people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by InspectorGadget

[nameismud]

I personally try not to use words like that, it's not that difficult. Definitely didn't enjoy reading this post. Just going to link this here Suicide among gay youth

[shaitan]

You guys are given your say/weight/leeway in quite a few things around here. When it comes to rules: they are what I want them to be, that part has not changed(excepting when people sneak things in when I don't notice). Call me a dictator all you want.

That ruling has been this way for 10 years. People don't target-harass other people in that manner and get away with it when it comes up on the radar. Guess what? It doesn't even have to be someone calling another person "nigger/retard/faggot/chink/etc" repeatedly or anything of that sort...it's all pretty much covered with the harassment rulings when they keep on doing something to someone else, that other person: A. freaks the fuck out  B. rages right back with(usually) racism in response. Whenever shit like that happens...it is extremely easy to read between the lines to see how things got started. Ironically enough, that targeted person's racist response is also taken into consideration(not banning that guy when he loses his shit over being treated like garbage). It usually happens that way, over the years.

Maybe some time down the road that may get amended, but that'd mean the whole playerbase changed(to younger people), or this has actually become an issue(the things some of you gripe about like e+fire/c4 puking/...those eventually became issues that had to be dealt with because it was ruining things). So, I guess I can't really say "never".

 

[Itai795]

19 hours ago, AprilWar said:

Where does it stop tho. If the rule is going to be lets avoid 'racist' (which we all kinda agree) AND homophobic AND ableist remarks why stop there. Why not keep censoring speech to also ban transphobic, fatphobic, M.A.Phobic, and other groups out there. 

If we keep enforcing this "we are all balloons in a world of pins" mindset, not just the server is going to become a worse place, but @Society. There's nothing better for an individual than growing some thick skin and learning how to brush off jerks or ignorant stuff.

I want to address your question of where does it stop. I agree with you and your sub-text of it might be a slope (at least I interpreted it this way). It stops where we agree it should stop. We already drew a line, and the discussion here is about moving this line to encircle another group. All of your examples are valid in my opinion, it's just that they are not really an issue since a. they are not really common and b. nobody complained about them (and a. feeds b. I guess).

 

19 hours ago, shaitan said:

As I said; how are you going to moderate ME when I do it? I don't make/enforce rules that I'm going to break, and I will. It'll look stupid if I'm the only one getting away with saying it.

You guys have tried this over the years, it is not going to work, and will never have my backing.

3 hours ago, shaitan said:

You guys are given your say/weight/leeway in quite a few things around here. When it comes to rules: they are what I want them to be, that part has not changed(excepting when people sneak things in when I don't notice). Call me a dictator all you want.

That ruling has been this way for 10 years. People don't target-harass other people in that manner and get away with it when it comes up on the radar. Guess what? It doesn't even have to be someone calling another person "nigger/retard/faggot/chink/etc" repeatedly or anything of that sort...it's all pretty much covered with the harassment rulings when they keep on doing something to someone else, that other person: A. freaks the fuck out  B. rages right back with(usually) racism in response. Whenever shit like that happens...it is extremely easy to read between the lines to see how things got started. Ironically enough, that targeted person's racist response is also taken into consideration(not banning that guy when he loses his shit over being treated like garbage). It usually happens that way, over the years.

Maybe some time down the road that may get amended, but that'd mean the whole playerbase changed(to younger people), or this has actually become an issue(the things some of you gripe about like e+fire/c4 puking/...those eventually became issues that had to be dealt with because it was ruining things). So, I guess I can't really say "never".

 

Nobody denies that you make the rules. @InspectorGadget stretched (his word) the dictatorship term a bit, but RC isn't a democracy either. At the end, this is the last standing Renegade server and a major part for that is your leading and rule making, so I'm happily comply with your decisions (even the ones I don't agree with) and trusting your instincts. I'm perfectly fine with RC's "governing" system. The outcome doesn't lie, this server decision making is better than any other Ren server. Thanks for that, your efforts, work and leadership are not unappreciated.

That being said and cleared up, you can be wrong about things and (I think) you are wrong about this. The reasoning that you shouldn't be moderated (=criticized) disappoints me. It sorts of implying your behaviour is perfect, sorry if I'm too blunt here.

I don't see at this thread anyone that raised any good point to not be more strict about these matters, except for April who raised his concerns.

But yeah Shai, as I just said this is your decision at the end, I trust your judgment and as a staff here I'm backing it up in game. However, I'm not sure how and to what extend I'm expected to act when somebody approaches me (in game) saying that he feels he's been harassed other than asking the harasser to stop, and I'm not sure my decisions are fully backed up up the chain of moderation.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Itai795

[UksRene]

I think I was in game when somebody said that word on F2 public chat ? and if I see that word again I’ll pm them and ask them to tone it down.

however if someone pm you just let me know and I’ll talk to the person to tone it down. 
 

as much I agree with your post and having a disability myself I do get where your coming from. 
 

it happens everywhere unfortunately. 

[InspectorGadget]

yeah i feel like i need to clear things up a bit more. i was just trying to showcase the concept that shai applies here in saying i´m against it cause it would apply to me and look silly and showed another example on why that whole concept has some flaws. i do not feel that rencorner is this awful place ruled by a stubborn dictator at the top who is imposing his will on a playerbase that has nowhere else to go or something. i do think this place is run pretty well in general. i sometimes wish things could be done a bit quicker but i also realize it´s a time issue with most people here having jobs, family etc. also as someone who doesn´t do much here other than giving his feedback here and there it´s important to realize that it´s quite the easy position if you´re not the one who actually has to do stuff.

 

and i don´t even think that shai wants to imply he´s perfect or anyhting it´s just that he knows himself well enough that he will break these rules sometimes and sees a potential risk/bad look there, similar concept than a guilty pleasure lol. but that´s something you can work towards if you want to and also as i laid out i don´t see a huge issue even if it happens. i´m personally am in favor of an improved netiquette and i might have broken some of the rules that would be in it in the past and i can´t guarantee i won´t do it again either.

 

i´ll leave some food for thought here, triggerwarning for the f-word though

 

 

[shaitan]

I had logs ready to post(from the last few months), just didn't do them earlier. Main point was going to show you HOW it generally gets used, versus the ones who are obvious troublemakers harassing people. You may have seen me (temp?)ban one who was going after people. And tbh I didn't realize to the extent this guy was doing it before the ban(smurf nicks). I cant recall if the unban worked on him or not...was glitched. Either way he's going to comply or be removed totally.

There's a few of you in them calling other people fags...and ironically enough I was the last in that log. 

[AprilWar]

 

2 hours ago, Itai795 said:

I want to address your question of where does it stop. I agree with you and your sub-text of it might be a slope (at least I interpreted it this way). It stops where we agree it should stop. We already drew a line, and the discussion here is about moving this line to encircle another group. All of your examples are valid in my opinion, it's just that they are not really an issue since a. they are not really common and b. nobody complained about them (and a. feeds b. I guess).

I just think that the way you guys want to draw this new line / circle is wrong. It's not about technicalities and whether we should avoid certain words, it's about intent. If I know x person has a disability and I constantly and purposely call him/her a retard with the intention of "harassing" (which is already a rule) and making fun of his/her condition then I do deserve a mute. If I address the term to you simply because you didn't use remotes-only in a 3-engineer apc rush when we could've had Power Plant, it's a totally different story. These rules are already in place.

Words like faggot/retard do not overwhelmingly and solely mean an insult towards x population. Especially in gaming, they are used towards people who are playing cowardly (perhaps even foul play too), or who are dumb (perhaps even to the point of team hampering). Most players use the terms like this. The difference between this and racial slurs is that slurs almost always are used to denigrate a person's ethnic, cultural or religious background. It's only in some cases where the n word can be used in the spirit od comradery by some people with a specific background, but overall I get why it is banned.

If a person who might have a disability says 'don't call me like that'. Then that's precedent so no one knowingly uses that term on him/her again. I'm all for it. However, if this person just sees someone else use this term on someone else (who doesn't have a disability) and just wants to impose on the 3rd party, then that's selfish and it isn't the place of the server to cater and have special treatment for such individuals that just want to dictate how words should be always interpreted.

Also, democracy doesn't make things right. Banning speech might be supported by tons of people nowadays, but that does not mean it is the right way to go. For this I think mods need to look at intention and make a judgement call. Is this person harassing this other person at a deeper level? (via clear purpose, threats, PMs) is this person constantly doing it? Etc. but to just ban umbrella terms that are used by tons of people is just bad moderating. 

That is as to the use of certain words, but as to the request of putting an end to bad behavior I only have this to say:🖕. This even more dictatorial than whatever anything has ever said in an online forum.

Edited August 29, 2022 by AprilWar

[InspectorGadget]

i don´t disagree with your sentiment that intent matters and does make a difference, the same expression have varying levels of rudeness(if the context is right none at all) but i don´t think that´s good enough, i think you´re neglecting how hurtful it can be if expressions like faggot or retard are just commonly used insults if these things are related to you. also if you think about how these expressions turned into commonly used insults, i mean i can speak for germany but i think a lot of it has to do with the nazi era and that they viewed other ethnicities, but also gay or disabled people as unworthy and in many cases put them into concentration camps where they were exploited and in many cases eventually killed. and this whole ideology of viewing minorities as something worth less than the majority wasn´t a singularity in germany, it could and can still be found all over the world. so i don´t really get why we should still  holding on to remainders of this evil ideology. and i say this as someone who has these expressions countless times himself, espescially in childhood just cause that´s what the environment that i was living in was providing me with it was how i grew up and most of us did. but we don´t need to romanticize it just cause that´s how we grew up or because we ourselves did it, we can also evolve from there if we so choose. humanity does that all the time and i think it´s just the right thing to do here.

 

and even if you don´t want to engage in my little history discourse or think it´s stupid, by applying a term like retard to someone too dumb to throw use motes in an apc rush you´re saying his inability to play the game correctly must come from the fact he has a disability. "oh you dumbass, look at you not using motes. must come from you being a retard in general, "normal people" wouldn´t fail in that way". it´s still portraying the idea that "retards" are less capable even though their disability might have nothing to do with their talent at playing renegade or how they handle life in general.

[ice187dna]

Well the other option is to auto mute every player that joins renegade and they can only use the default commands to communicate instead. But will that go down well with the Renegade players...no.