Rotation and new map ideas

[UnitXc]

OKAY HERES MY IDEA FOR THE ROTATION

Field_RxD, Crevasse (20min time), Islands, Walls_Flying, Volcano_RxD, BunkersTS, Complex, LostTemple_K1, City_Flying, Snow_RxD, Deth_River, Canyon_RxD,
Under, Sand_RxD (20min time), Volcano, Islands, Field_3, Glacier_Flying, Walls, Uphill_RxD, Complex, Arid, Creekdale_flying, DeDust2_Night, Dusk, Islands_RxD
IcebergV3, Mesa,  SiegeDB, Tomb, Dawn_RaidDB,  Complex, Canyon, Volcano, Greenery

 

Removed Maps (personal opinion!)

Field_Flying_b4  - Already too many instances of "Field" id put this in place of Field_3 but Field_3 polled really well.
FjordsTR  - Much too big should be avoided unless for events
Atoll_b3 - Sickly ambient colour pallet with no shadows where its really bright outside.
Old_Times_b5 - even more sickly ambient colour pallet giving it a low quality feel.
SeasideCanyon - Half of the building geometry is missing and looks low quality
Walls_G_b5  - absolutely horrible colour pallet that literally exhausts you to look at. 0 shadows or detail (I feel this GDI vs GDI concept could be really good with more time put into it, imo one base should still be "Red" not green, it should be nod having stolen GDI buildings and producing their tech, Nod Wf, Nod Barracks etc. Grey Painted GDI vehicles / infantry skins. Base alerts are confusing as all alerts say "GDI X Under Attack" when both teams are GDI.

Edited February 8, 2023 by UnitXc

[InspectorGadget]

City_Flying, Snow_RxD, Deth_River, Canyon_RxD,
Under

if the server is populated this right here might take super long, might need to throw a few maps in there that kinda guarantee it doesn´t end up in a campfest. i mean snow can be super fast but when it´s 20v20 with balanced teams it often player like under, maybe even worse cause you can´t even snipe with tanks whoring middle out of boredom. but it´s probably ok in most instances, but maybe replace snow with something that guarantees fast pace and put snow somewhere else

 

Arid, Creekdale_flying, DeDust2_Night, Dusk, Islands_RxD
IcebergV3, Mesa,  SiegeDB,

i don´t know dusk but this part of the rotation also seems to me like a part where there might be too many long games in a row, might a volcano here, a complex or something similar there in between.

i also personally really dislike arid and i think if you want to add another inf only map gobi is much better then crevasse imo. could just have a separate poll on that to get an idea of what the players want. 2 options - 1 if you want another inf only map in the first hand and second option if it should be gobi or crevasse or even a second sand. think sand is the best of those 3.

 

but overall i think your rotation is pretty nice and a good starting point to go further, thx for taking the time. one candidate  for a faster paced map i´d like to see is bio. it´s not perfect but good enough to bring it back every once in a while imo.

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by InspectorGadget

[PwnCall]

Bio is another great one reminds me of tomb, both are very good and fast games usually. The small ones without defenses are a lot of fun.

[UksRene]

Was playing last night there was a few complaints including myself playing new maps after maps for a few games in a row 

i think we should have something like WW map then a new map then WW map etc to balance it out rather than having like 4 new maps in a row. 
 

[UnitXc]

18 hours ago, InspectorGadget said:

City_Flying, Snow_RxD, Deth_River, Canyon_RxD,
Under

if the server is populated this right here might take super long, might need to throw a few maps in there that kinda guarantee it doesn´t end up in a campfest. i mean snow can be super fast but when it´s 20v20 with balanced teams it often player like under, maybe even worse cause you can´t even snipe with tanks whoring middle out of boredom. but it´s probably ok in most instances, but maybe replace snow with something that guarantees fast pace and put snow somewhere else

 

Arid, Creekdale_flying, DeDust2_Night, Dusk, Islands_RxD
IcebergV3, Mesa,  SiegeDB,

i don´t know dusk but this part of the rotation also seems to me like a part where there might be too many long games in a row, might a volcano here, a complex or something similar there in between.

i also personally really dislike arid and i think if you want to add another inf only map gobi is much better then crevasse imo. could just have a separate poll on that to get an idea of what the players want. 2 options - 1 if you want another inf only map in the first hand and second option if it should be gobi or crevasse or even a second sand. think sand is the best of those 3.

 

but overall i think your rotation is pretty nice and a good starting point to go further, thx for taking the time. one candidate  for a faster paced map i´d like to see is bio. it´s not perfect but good enough to bring it back every once in a while imo.

Parts of the rotation I agree some parts will slow down, but that kinda allows the server to keep a stable population, in the years ive played nothing empties a server faster than rapid continuous map rotations, I was also trying to keep the total number of maps to a minimum, rather than clogging difficult spots up with complex islands canyon on repeat. I sort of imagined Snow as a fast map to go after City but I suppose it is actually just a grinding slug fest with 0 momentum.

What about removing Arid and adding snow there instead with a Canyon after it? so it would be Complex, Snow, Canyon, Creekdale_Flying? DeDust2 seems to be over almost before it starts whenever ive played it so I had it down as a fast map before Dusk which seems quite expansive and could take a while.

 

On the topic of sand/crevasse, Crevasse looks absolutely beautiful and is probably one of the best lit and styled maps ive seen, Sand is absolutely atrocious to play especially with the big brain pimp weapons. probably my least favourite map on the rotation by far would only be fun if snipers were removed. I kept it in the rotation only because other people like it and its on Shai's list.
The one cripplingly bad thing i did notice about Crevasse is there is no money generation besides from your direct actions, not really fond if that. just wanted to give it a go because it looks really pretty. better than even the WW maps. but again wouldnt be too bothered it if was removed. 

17 hours ago, PwnCall said:

Bio is another great one reminds me of tomb, both are very good and fast games usually. The small ones without defenses are a lot of fun.

Bio seemed fine, its not on the server right now though so I didnt include it. where would you put it in the rotation i suggested :)

[InspectorGadget]

yeah i mean that´s open to debate what you want here really. it´s a valid argument to say long maps fill the server and in one way it certainly does. people who join a map mostly play it till it ends and leave before the new map. however, there is also an argument to be made that because of that, people sometimes don´t join in the first place. when i´m debating to play ren and i see under i just rarely join and wait until it´s over. if you have a map i don´t dislike at the same time i would absolutely join. that´s an effect that you can´t measure cause you don´t see it and you don´t get numbers. i think this would be mostly regular players though that really have grown sick of a map cause they play a lot, i think the more casual players wouldn´t care as much, they play ren when they have the time for it regardless of the map. and i also think having a couple of matches that last one hour or longer also kills the server in a way, as people might be willing to stick around for a shortie complex after 3 hours of under, but not for another map that is expected to last long, so there should be some balance there. question is to which degree. so these things all aren´t black and white and counter each other out in some ways, everyone can decide which of these things is more important for the server population and we´ll probably never get to the bottom of it due to lack of data.

you´re also not wrong about snow, it can be super quick with lower server population but when the server is highly populated it turns out to be one of the grindiest maps we have. i´d say it´s even the worst map in regards to that once it reached a stalemate situation. if 2-3 tanks each side whore the middle tunnel thingy, 2 apc´s + scan for sbh´s and the rest of the players sit in a tank camping the cave without rushing what are you gonna do lol? and it does happen somewhat frequently with high player numbers.

replacing arid with snow i like much better, you could also put bio where snow is right now then. dust2 i think ends too quickly if not enough people who are familiar with the map are in the server. i played this map a couple of times with a very regheavy lineup and 20+ players  recently and it took quite a while there, was fun though. so i think we need to expect it to be a middle map in terms of gametime. it will never be an under though i think.

 

well for me personally, i really like sand but i do like to snipe every once in a while. what i dislike about crevasse is how narrow it is at some points cause i tend to lag there and also the weird hon/bar with elevators and such. rencorner stands for vanilla renegade with a little upgrade here and there, that´s kind of the brand and for me personally, that weird ass buildings with elevators deviate too much from that. it feels like an mpf map to me entirely. but i could also live with it being in there of course, it´s only 20 min anyways. i also noticed i seem to care much less about how maps look like you do. i mean thinking about what you said about crevasse i get what you´re saying, but when playing it i never even noticed lol. think it´s up to shai and other admins if that is still rencorner for them and if they are ok with it, i think we should just do a seperate poll.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by InspectorGadget

[UnitXc]

To be honest If under had a second way to attack the enemy base I would like it a lot more, but its mostly the question of wanting to finish a map that you started, for me at least. so what you said about having too many slow maps at once is a valid point, if I join and its under i'll play, w/e.. but if ive played for 2 hours and then its under.. i know im not going to see the end of the map to even know if my effort was worth it (not that im normally trying very hard but you know itd be nice to know the outcome either way) so if the skip vote doesnt go through i dont play it and leave.

Snow is my second least favourite map after Sand, its dreadful but people love it so w/e. For Bio, Shai wanted us to reduce the number of maps not increase the number, he didnt include it in the latest server map additions so we cant add it as it stands right now.

20 hours ago, InspectorGadget said:

Rencorner stands for vanilla renegade with a little upgrade here and there, that´s kind of the brand

I actually completely agree 100% with this, that is why I think this rotation needs to be fixed as soon as possible, from what ive seen everyone just goes to play on MPF now, RC was dead all week. Jelly Mara was just like this before it closed, 99% traditional ren (didnt even have pointsfix lol) with some different maps sprinkled in sometimes, though much much more rarely than RC has.

This is actually why I dislike maps that dont look good and focus on their looks much more than others. Not only because I also make maps but because i know from experience that if my map LOOKS bad, I got my arsehole gaped open by 50 angry renegade players tearing my a new one over it, regardless of how it played.

So I took that outlook and used it to at least try and make maps i make LOOK nice even if they may not play particularly how I would like. 

I also find that maps that dont look nice actually physically exhaust me to play on, its painful and Id want my own stuff to at least be somewhat pleasant for people to try and learn how to play, most maps are now second nature to people so that learning can be difficult, especially if it looks like ass.

the one good thing about Crevasse over Sand for me is that the very low economy limits infantry to the classes I enjoy most, so maybe im biased. either way, I get what you mean with the elevators, lol.. i actually thought that myself when i first saw them.

There is also the arguement that due to server brand there should only be say a max of 5 fan maps at any one time. in this rotation below there are 6 new fan maps amid the 6 that were already in the server. ive taken DeDust2 (its not on the server atm) and Dusk (doesnt really fit as easily into the rotation) out and am left with this below?

Which out of the blue ones should be removed (if any), as the maker of LostTemple im obviously biased and want that to stay, Greenery looks like it could be fun, BunkersTS is horrible every time ive played it, Field_3 i dont see how field without agt/ob will be less of a nod stomp than it already is with included constant sbh nukes, Creekdale_flying was okay but hit and miss, I prefer the none flying version. Dawn_RaidDB seemed like a real slog but I had fun on it.

X - Unknown
X - Timed
X - Fast
X - Med-Fast
X - Med-Slow
X - Slow
X - Additional Fan Map (this rotation change only)

Field_RxD, Islands, Uphill_RxD, LostTemple_K1, Volcano_RxD, Greenery, Walls_Flying, BunkersTS, Complex, City_Flying, Islands, Deth_River, Canyon_RxD, 
Under, Sand_RxD (20min time), Volcano, Field_3, Islands, Snow_RxD, Walls, Glacier_Flying, Complex, Creekdale_flying, Islands_RxD, 
IcebergV3, Mesa, SiegeDB, Tomb, Volcano, Dawn_RaidDB, Complex, Canyon,

[InspectorGadget]

field_3 or creekdale flying seem the best candidates to get rid of for me there. i never really got the appeal behind those alternate versions of maps whenever we tried them out. think they may be ok to throw in by admins every once in a while but shouldn´t have a place in the rotation. creekdale flying got stale to a lot of players quickly every time we had it in, but so does bio tbh, i just like bio way more. also can´t say anything about your map, i played it on a server i don´t even remember when you released it initially lol

[PwnCall]

I think a lot of people ingame were requesting Field2 over field3.  Field 2 has regular guard towers and turrets to help prevent sbh nukes at least in the early to mid game.

I can also modify it any ways people might think is best. I have it all set up already so it’s easy to change things around.

 

im also working on a new version of under with a rear entrance.  Will make the map play much quicker I think. Infantry will be able to get in pretty easily and tanks can hit buildings without being able to be hit by base defenses.

[Forithow]

1 hour ago, PwnCall said:

I think a lot of people ingame were requesting Field2 over field3.  Field 2 has regular guard towers and turrets to help prevent sbh nukes at least in the early to mid game.

I can also modify it any ways people might think is best. I have it all set up already so it’s easy to change things around.

 

im also working on a new version of under with a rear entrance.  Will make the map play much quicker I think. Infantry will be able to get in pretty easily and tanks can hit buildings without being able to be hit by base defenses.

Yeah, I like the idea of having a repair facility where the agt/ob used to be (obviously make the rep facility better than its base settings on leveledit, 'cause the base settings is shit repair)

[PwnCall]

Yea that makes a lot of sense I’ll add it to field2 and field3. There’s a lot of space for it.

 

Sand needs to be removed altogether I think, was just not any fun, both bases were fully mined and had too many snipers covering the entrances to make it in.

[InspectorGadget]

i see sand as a sniping map basically. if you like it depends on if you like to snipe in general or not. population seems pretty fine with it though, it almost never gets skipped

[Goztow]

@shaitan

ETA on when you plan to evaluate the current rotation and get back to something more routine?

[Goztow]

OK, I released some mathematical logic on this problem. No help from ChatGPT ;-), just plain old brains and Excel.

I worked around the idea:

- base is 1 base defense map, 2 non base defense maps

- original maps are the basis for the rotation

- we need to take in account some maps are slower or faster regardless of base defenses or not. So I added the variable 1 entrance or more than one entrance

- marathon or timed mix with a preference for marathon as this is in the title (though I personally prefer timed but heh ;-) )

- fan maps that were in previous rotation and are in current rotation have already been added as I assume people like them

I made 2 variations so far: 24 maps rotation and 30 maps rotation. I'll only post the 24 maps rotation for the moment as I think it's preferable to limit the number of fan maps, as the original maps or their variations need to stay the base of the rotation in my opinion.

I may have "cheated" now and then on original / fan maps to make it work. That's creator's liberty ;-).

In this 24 maps configuration we need 5 more fan rush maps and 2 fan BD maps to fill up the gaps. So what's your favorite fan maps to add?

Suggestions are welcome, of course. Yellow still needs to be picked.

[InspectorGadget]

hmm death_river, uphill, tomb, de_dust2, bio, temple, iceberg 3, bunkers_ts, creekdale flying, sand/gobi/crevasse as 20 min sniping maps are potentially maps that you could fill your gaps with.though they do have different speed. sniping maps i think if we would go for 30 maps we should have two of them in the rotation, with 24 it´s debatable if you do one or two.

 

[UnitXc]

Imo it needs to be longer than this, but not as long as Shaitans triple length rotation.

https://i.imgur.com/2aOedmh.jpg

Edited February 13, 2023 by UnitXc

[Goztow]

I took Shaitan's maps and his idea to duplicate the rotation and made this 48 maps rotation. The black maps are returning in the 2nd rotation (from map 25 to 48) while the red maps only appear once in the 48 maps.

I also tried to add some change in the longest BD maps by changing between RXD and not and by changing between 45 mins and marathon. Of course open for suggestions.

[Goztow]

Update after some feedback from shai.

The maps Greenery and Bio did not meet Shait's criteria but are IMO worthy of filling the open spots. Tomb is added twice to fill an open spot as well.

Alternatively, we could fill up the yellow spots with original rush maps to lessen the impact of fanmaps on the rotation.

There's one of the "voted in" maps maps: field_flying_b6. It's just because we already have 3 different versions of Field: Field, Field_RxD and Field_3. Adding a 4th would be a bit much for me. But it could replace one of the 3 current Field versions or it could be added in one of the yellow spots.

[Blacky]

You guys are awesome haha 

[shaitan]

3 hours ago, Goztow said:

The maps Greenery and Bio did not meet Shait's criteria but are IMO worthy of filling the open spots.

Greenery had only 5 votes. Bio was not even in the list/running.

[InspectorGadget]

thing is who even knew what greenery is? i didn´t. also you´ve done good old bio dirty, it´s a good map.

[Forithow]

10 hours ago, InspectorGadget said:

thing is who even knew what greenery is? i didn´t. also you´ve done good old bio dirty, it´s a good map.

Greenery is a nice S-shaped map and similar gameplay style to Complex or Canyon. I like it at the very least, I dunno about what other people think. It's made by the same person that made Creekdale iirc, and no bulletproof bushes :v

There's also C&C_Frost which is made by the same guy but I didn't suggest it since I think there's a few bugs like the ob does double damage, and harvesters not moving

Edited February 15, 2023 by Forithow

[UnitXc]

yup, when the vote first appeared, had no idea what greenery was and so didnt vote for it. It looks really good.

I like Goztows rotation suggestion as if the rotation stays the way it is i'll never see my map again lmao. in the middle of like 70 maps.

Polls are not an exact science, I think Greenery should def go in.

15 hours ago, Goztow said:

Remove Under_RXD and Field_RXD pls, the whole debate about the rotation started because having 2 fields and 2 unders is torture, there should only be 1 of each in the rotation unless the additional one is substantially different.

Edited February 15, 2023 by UnitXc

[Goztow]

Field rxd could be replaced with field flying b6. 

[UnitXc]

the other under should be replaced with Hourglass.