Learonys Posted September 17, 2023 Posted September 17, 2023 There are a lot of mixed opinions about this map but one thing i think most of us can agree on is how stupidly powerful stanks are on this map. Imagine trying to counter those pesky camping arties - that are camping to prevent themselves from getting RSI off course - that have an easy time climbing the hill because MRLS have a hard time shooting their target instead of the floor below them. Fair enough, that's a hurdle that can easily be overcome, but those damn AWFUL stanks are getting in your way. You try to kill someone escaping but you remember that the odds are skewed as the obby is taller than the hill. Don't worry, you have ONE singular rock you can align in between of the obby to safely shoot retreating tanks! Did I say it was more than ZERO? AMAZING! Meanwhile nod stanks get free reign to shoot anything pretty much halfway across the entire decline. Now you think you're being smart by grabbing a mammoth so you can do the same. but not only are you a HUGE and slow moving target, for your tusks to go anywhere you like you need to pretty much rotate your gun 90 degrees between shots like a spastic for them to land exactly where you like. the average 50IQ stank player can just point straight forward, tape their favourite heirloom brick they got from their great-grandfather, on their LMB, and heat up that microwave to prepare that delicious popcorn as the entirety of GDI is quaking in fear right now. Now imagine you go through that horrible, herculean effort required to break through Nod's defences, and you placed some MRLS to finally start shooting nod's buildings. Nod can just get 1, maybe 2 flamers to yolo double the amount of MRLS and there goes your hill domination. Wowzers! Playing this map is a complete waste of time! Either way, all the hyperbole and humor aside... I would be willing to forgo every trouble coming at me that gives Nod an edge on this map but those damn stanks are SOMETHING ELSE. Can you like, double their price, reduce their HP? *anything* that either reduces their numbers or makes them less dominant on the hill? I don't want to feel like i'm being forced to get three people together on TS just to barely be able to fight the uncoordinated pubbies on the hill. Yes, I'm playing hourglass right now. How did you guess. :) /rant over
crushu06 Posted September 18, 2023 Posted September 18, 2023 Make Stanks 1200 on Hourglass and City_Flying 2
Vultima Posted September 18, 2023 Posted September 18, 2023 I think this just needs to be accepted as part of the game I agree though they are very strong in that scenario, however overall they are 2 different teams each with their owns pros and cons depending on scenarios, map, player count, length of the game, if its marathon or timed, so much. Il caveat this by saying some of these things only apply to public server games and not more competitive clanwar style games. Mammies - On field as in the map field, mammies are USELESS, like MEGA useless, you cant push out with them because they are outranged by Arties, they block everything else and pretty much come out 1 by 1. Also due to the limited amount of space at Nod entrance you can get maybe 2 or 3 mammies hitting the HON at the same time with NO room for anything else, literally the only use for a mammy is maybe defending against an incoming rush but you will be doing that - or rather maybe correct wording is should be doing that VERY situationally - Yet you get the odd noob who buys a mammy when Nod is peppering the WF who gets in the way of everyone, particularly the MRLS. However mammies are amazing in situations like complex where you are sat on top of the airstrip, and since complex is a small map, it doesn't take an excessive amount of time to get to the Nod base. Orcas - are much better than apaches in general, far longer range with the cannon, however Orcas have smaller rocket range - Generally people will prefer Orcas due to their 1v1 potential vs apaches being higher, but Orcas are louder which is hardly bad thing. Gunners - Nod doesn't have Gunners therefore no strong rockets, but GDI does have LCGs(Can be considered the counterpart despite being 50 credits more expensive) which are far more instantaneous in their damage, however with a gunner you can take a shot, hide rinse and repeat, with an LCG you cannot do that, LCGs require you stay on target and be visibly firing at all times. Stanks - GDI has NO stealth capabilities what so ever, so on maps with no base defences, sneaking with an SBH nuke is an option that GDI doesn't have. APCs - GDI APC is smaller and therefore slightly harder to hit, and can fit through gaps Nod can't such as the sides on city flying. Arties - Can hold their own against most vehicles in the game and have full 360 rotation, whereas MRLS have rockets which are slower, and if you get one from behind, they are 99% dead, but MRLS can bend rockets around corners, which is super good on maps like field at hitting the techs supporting the arties at Nod entrance around the corner. Soldiers - Nod soldiers are worse than GDI soldiers, Nod soldiers have a bigger head therefore easier to hit(plus there are some differences in the rifle too I believe) - This is actually mentioned in "lore" whereas GDI soldiers are better trained than Nod soldiers. Hand of Nod - Has loads of entry points on flying maps, to the point mines are borderline useless unless you want to cover 4 entry points for a single building(potentially committing 24 mines used just to cover off a building entirely), whereas for the barracks on flying maps you only need to mine 2 doors, because infantry can jump in avoiding the sandbags from above, on non-flying maps you only need to map the sandbag entrance, where Nod will still have to mine the front and back. Obelisk - Can 1 shot most infantry in the game, however does have a warmup which can be "juked" by using obstacles to sneak, but have a far more easy to hear sound indicator to know someone is trying something sneaky. AGT - Whereas it doesn't do as much damage as the Obelisk, it is far better at dealing with multiple targets, but it is quieter, and GDI may miss the sound that someone is trying to sneak. Glacier - GDI has significant advantage over Nod on Glacier flying, due to the fact the bridge access can be used to get MRLS up immediately and hit the air, whereas Nod has no such thing it can do and the Nod base is accessible via the tib field for hitting Hon, Obby, Ref. However Nod has far better prospects concerning infantry to sneak in, Nod can use the Bar/Ref tunnel which aren't too far away from each other and not the easiest to spot and can be done in a way to not even trigger the AGT, whereas GDI regardless of route, will always set the obby off as a sound indicator and the walk to the Nod ref to do such a thing, is a massive trek trying to not get spotted on the way is a task in itself. Large Maps in General - Nod has significant advantage over GDI on really large maps, such as city flying, most games end with a stank rush. Field - GDI finds holding the field FAR easier that Nod, however the Nod base is harder to hit and only has a limited space for a certain amount of vehicles to hit the HON at a time, and complete opposite the other way round, Nod can hit the WF easily, and in large numbers, not as easy for GDI because of the limited amount of space you have for vehicles that can hit the hand, there are far more intricacies to field but let's just end it there... We could be here all day reeling these off, the point is, this is just another scenario where Nod is better. Pretty sure @shaitanhas win/loss % going back years, where there are NO maps which are 60/40 it is all around 50/50, having the better "team" for a certain map is just part of the deal. 2
Learonys Posted September 18, 2023 Author Posted September 18, 2023 I get that there are many differences between the teams, but that's not my main gripe here. it's the map layout that gives nod stanks a huge advantage, imo one that's even bigger than on Field. I'm not asking to fix arties, flamers, or even the height difference between the AGT and obby, even though that would be a good alternate solution imo. This is the one map where the odds are so humongously stacked against GDI on the hill that it's honestly pathetic. This isn't a case of, "Just capture the field, once you own it, it's easy to hold onto" like on field. Owning the hill on Hourglass is a task that requires overwhelming firepower for GDI but just a few stanks for Nod. I don't really understand why we should accept being one unit being so indisputably dominant on a singular map.
shaitan Posted September 18, 2023 Posted September 18, 2023 That one...has always been a bad map. These are <2 people, <2 minutes, minus server shutdown. I picked these dates mostly, because we changed the hillcamp rule on Sep 16, 2019. Kind of similar spots before, during, and after that year. Jan 1 - Sep 18, 2018. 71 Maps: GDI 29(41%) / Nod 42(59%) Jan 1 - Sep 18, 2019. 36 Maps: GDI 13(36%) / Nod 33(64%) Jan 1 - Sep 18, 2020. 142 Maps: GDI 44(31%) / Nod 98(69%) Jan 1 - Sep 18, 2021. 245 Maps: GDI 89(36%) / Nod 156(64%) Jan 1 - Sep 18, 2022. 273 Maps: GDI 96(35%) / Nod 177(65%) Jan 1 - Sep 18, 2023. 108 Maps: GDI 39(36% / Nod 69(61%) These are <2 people(as close as I can get, because back then I wasn't having RCBOT save most info(I stripped that shit from 2014+ logs just now)), <2 minutes, minus server shutdown. Aug 26, 2014 - Oct 31, 2017 2179 Maps: GDI 795(36%) / Nod 1384(64%) Keeping the hill on GDI is easy if you have 1-2 good mammy drivers with a hotwire. The problem always comes from the map sides when you do that. 1
Goztow Posted September 18, 2023 Posted September 18, 2023 The only real solution is to remove the map or accept this. 3
InspectorGadget Posted September 18, 2023 Posted September 18, 2023 ban hourglass i usually don´t join when it´s on so i can´t really tell how the playerbase feels about it, we brought it back for some nostalgia, are people already getting bored of it or na? 1
Manuel857 Posted September 18, 2023 Posted September 18, 2023 Since when is Hourglass back in the rotation? Last time I looked into the rotation0, I don't recall it being there lol.
Vultima Posted September 18, 2023 Posted September 18, 2023 I honestly quite whenever hourglass comes on lol, most boring map. Last time I saw the stats shai everything looked fine, unless hourglass wasn't included in the last round of stats
InspectorGadget Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 well there is stats how many people play a map and then there is the ingame knowledge on how they are playing it and if they enjoy it. i was looking for the later, as i also mostly ragequit whenever it comes up.
UksRene Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 (edited) GDI needs teamwork with mass meds both sides while stanks chill at the top of mountain. teamwork is needed for GDI imo easier said than done. Edited September 19, 2023 by UksRene
AprilWar Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 the previous rotation: one map w/ base def followed by another one w no base def and no hourglass was way better, this one sucks. keep the new maps tho
shaitan Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 The previous rotation had it. What's funny is you guys will never be happy, always some complaint or other. We had a good rotation with that topic, then bitched at me about not using the newer map updates from Pwncall. If we were to do Base/Non-Base, you guys would complain that the rotation is too big, lol. There's always been more Non-Bases's than Base's. Which, is why it's usually Base > Non-Base > Non-Base > Base(plus the back-to-back of Base gets tiresome for people).
Learonys Posted September 19, 2023 Author Posted September 19, 2023 I actually enjoy Hourglass a lot. Action to be found everywhere at your doorstep but without the annoying part where your team gets rolled over in minutes. Rushes are easy to organize because there's almost no no-man's land to cross where you may get ambushed or intercepted. Hourglass_Flying was just way too big, it makes arties and MRLS even more powerful on a map where they previously already are. Normal Hourglass without base defences sounds pretty interesting but I don't recall playing that. Can we at least agree to a price increase on stanks? I'd be willing to live with that.
WNxH3adSh00t Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 All it takes is a GDI player with half a braincell to see the stanks being bought. On that match GDI had the field most of the game. If you hold all the paths then it's extremely hard to do a stank rush especially through the sides cause they're narrow. If they manage to break through they would've lost a couple and all you have to do is to have people come back to base and clean them up. 1
Vultima Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Learonys said: Can we at least agree to a price increase on stanks? I'd be willing to live with that. This is easier said than done, the map would need to be remade with a new version, and a new PT Icon image inserted representing the 1200 cost rather than 900. It's a lot of work for something that might not even work to balance it and further changes be required. That said I stand by my original point, either lose the map or just accept it and pray you get Nod. For me personally I think if I knew something was harder it's more of a challenege, so I would prefer to be GDI :)
ExEric3 Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 And its all about 6 missiles lock which comes with tt 4.4? Gozy u should try stock fds as GDI with MRLS.
ExEric3 Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vultima said: This is easier said than done, the map would need to be remade with a new version, and a new PT Icon image inserted representing the 1200 cost rather than 900. It's a lot of work for something that might not even work to balance it and further changes be required. Just LE, temp preset for purchase settings, save as lvl and change that three files with mixer in that map file. Update ttfs repository and and u have result: Edited September 19, 2023 by ExEric3 correction 1
ILL Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 TT made stanks waaay too OP....they easily take down orcas down, definitely better now on hourglass hill than they were before, much easier to lock on infantry, etc...
BiLLaBoNg Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 2 hours ago, ExEric3 said: Just LE, temp preset for purchase settings, save as lvl and change that three files with mixer in that map file. Update ttfs repository and and u have result: Just Fraps, open renegade, record, get killing spree as easy as you do, stop recording, save as lvl, upload to youtube, share with billabong 1
Goztow Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 This isn't mpf. No messing with prizes plz.
ExEric3 Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 3 hours ago, ILL said: TT made stanks waaay too OP....they easily take down orcas down, definitely better now on hourglass hill than they were before, much easier to lock on infantry, etc... Well we today tested stock server with Learonys and it is huge difference. Im just waiting when crushu will request replace tt server with stock server files and maps at commwar. 1 hour ago, Goztow said: This isn't mpf. No messing with prizes plz. But it becomes with new maps in a rotation. Well shai can you just disable stanks as presets in ini files like u did on Niagra.mix and Deth_River.mix when u tried balance games?
shaitan Posted September 19, 2023 Posted September 19, 2023 2 hours ago, BiLLaBoNg said: Just Fraps, open renegade, record, get killing spree as easy as you do, stop recording, save as lvl, upload to youtube, share with billabong Billabong, control yourself before I have to do it. For the record, to all of you: just who do you think we're possibly going to have as another developer here? 1
PwnCall Posted September 20, 2023 Posted September 20, 2023 You should be able to increase the price server side. it’s such a trash campy map it’s not worth saving either way.
Vultima Posted September 20, 2023 Posted September 20, 2023 5 hours ago, PwnCall said: You should be able to increase the price server side. it’s such a trash campy map it’s not worth saving either way. :D completely agree, even the smaller competitive games its never played, its a snooze fest 1
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