Mines above doors = lame

[Vultima]

Un-counterable, unresolvable threat, shouldn't exist as a mechanic.

If someone does it properly, you can't even see them

In this image, I know they are there, cos 1 happens to clip through by a tiny pixel, which would take around 30+ seconds to disarm because you can't get a proper beam on it.

I then took a screenshot of every tap of my W key until I blew up, this was the last tap

 

Still can't see them, even in first person, unbalanced af

Glacier_Flying_HD changes the building models slightly, which I think makes the problem worst, iv never seen it be this egregious 

[Goztow]

I can only agree with you. But hard to moderate against it now that it has become so common, if it were to be disallowed. 

[Vultima]

It would have to be programmatically fixed if fixed at all, which is possible

[SweAngel]

Mine over doors was the first thing I learned when I started to play on RenCorner.

I got told off so many times in the begining for mining the floor, so I joined an empty server practicing for hours to get the darn things above the door.

I got pretty good on getting the mines in a perfec line but have never managed to hide them that well.

[Itai795]

It shouldn't be allowed when they are completely hidden (only visible from the inside is okay). I honestly thought it's already not allowed (nevertheless, never acted to enforice it)

[C4miner]

I played 2002-2008 and then not again until March 2024.  2002-2008 I don't ever recall seeing mines above doors, always on floors, so I was pretty surprised to see it the standard after I came back.  And honestly, if I'm the one mining doors for my team, I usually commit to base defense fully, so I'm patrolling the buildings as my role.  And in these cases, I prefer mines on the floor anyways because they're easier for me to count and verify during my patrols.  I do dislike doorframe mines, especially the ones that are completely invisible, but yeah it's pretty difficult to enforce

[ExEric3]

Can we allow flaming apc? And Vultima you didnt noticed there are more building models on stock maps? Like powerplant thin/thick wall?

[iK4l3l]

I had a break from ren about 8 yrs in 2014

When i was back to the game i saw someone just invented above door mining thing in sometime between 2014 and 2022

I agree it should be disallowed

Thou I am not sure how it could be possible to enforce it

Edited July 7, 2024 by iK4l3l

[C4miner]

If you get close to a C4 mine and press E on it, it tells you who the owner is.  SO it's pretty easy to enforce a ban on doorframe mines, there will just be a bit of startup friction if the rule suddenly came into force one day

[Vultima]

5 hours ago, C4miner said:

I played 2002-2008 and then not again until March 2024.  2002-2008 I don't ever recall seeing mines above doors, always on floors, so I was pretty surprised to see it the standard after I came back.  And honestly, if I'm the one mining doors for my team, I usually commit to base defense fully, so I'm patrolling the buildings as my role.  And in these cases, I prefer mines on the floor anyways because they're easier for me to count and verify during my patrols.  I do dislike doorframe mines, especially the ones that are completely invisible, but yeah it's pretty difficult to enforce

We (another community) did a bit of an investigation on this awhile ago because everyone was in agreement that mines just did not feel like their usual selves, and same realization as you, why are people doing it now but not before?
I can't remember what we discovered exactly but it was something along these lines
1. This might not be entirely accurate but it was something fundamental like the mines now seemingly do more damage or they have a better sensitivity
2. Say you put 20 mines on the floor, and you run into them, only the mines required to make the kill explode, where-as before, all 20 would have exploded. (meaning re-mining is required less often)

4 hours ago, ExEric3 said:

Can we allow flaming apc? And Vultima you didnt noticed there are more building models on stock maps? Like powerplant thin/thick wall?

Im not sure how flaming APCs(also bad mechanic) are comparable to mines
Yes I am aware that even in stock maps, not every wall is equal in thickness, the hon at the back in particular is probably the thickest of them all however. (Can't say iv been sat here measuring walls to be entirely accurate).
 

The reason why I posted in particular was a player (CAP), was mining the back of the hon door over and over, and every single time(roughly ran into them 5 times like a pidgeon xD), I could not see any mines, and just blew up, despite being as careful as I possible could(first person, looking up, moving left/right to angle myself for better vision) so on my final attempt, I took screenshots of his mines and only then noticed the tiny pixel poking out. Even then, there isn't a possibility to disarm them at all(except for the 1 which probably you'll waste 30/40 seconds on).

The way I see it, its the equivalent of just constructing an invisible, undefeatable force field allies can pass through, but enemies cannot.

Edited July 8, 2024 by Vultima

[masscarriers]

1 hour ago, Vultima said:

The way I see it, its the equivalent of just constructing an invisible, undefeatable force field allies can pass through, but enemies cannot.

And it's an accurate description of mines, isn't it. Shouldn't be it?

I don't have a problem with it, considering your team is spending precious time placing them (perhaps incorrectly) rather than running and blowing up buildings.

Maybe it's shitty in a CW setting where shit's tight, but in pubs games really?

Just my 2 cents fellows :)

[Vultima]

49 minutes ago, masscarriers said:

And it's an accurate description of mines, isn't it. Shouldn't be it?

I don't have a problem with it, considering your team is spending precious time placing them (perhaps incorrectly) rather than running and blowing up buildings.

Maybe it's shitty in a CW setting where shit's tight, but in pubs games really?

Just my 2 cents fellows :)

Well whilst that is what mines are like IRL, it's a game and they often don't depict reality for balancing purposes :D
If the original intention of mines was to be non-disarm-able then repair guns wouldn't work on them, and if they weren't meant to be seen, they'd be invisible to enemies

Yea it is annoying in CW games for sure, where you'd lose an entire vehicle potentially throwing a game away because you tried the "efficient" play to get an extra 2 remotes off on a building just to blow up and give your tank away - We found games became anti-fun and nobody would take said risk and slowed the pace of the game down and nobody equally is gonna sit there for 2 mins disarming mines, its a waste of time - But my gripe about gameplay in cws and pubs is not the same here, for instance...

Id argue its even worse in pub games tbh.
Little billy who plays the sneak game craving for a "Nod PP destroyed" on a game of under which is already 3 hours in the hole, sneaks a hotty all the way to the back of the PP, seemingly already accomplished the hard task of getting by 25 players(25v25), rejoicing internally that he has effectively single handedly saved the sanity of all Rene-wives(and husbands) that their spouse will soon finally get off the computer as the daily under slog is coming to an end -  all to be shat on because of spooky, invisible, non-disarm-able, un-tank-able, immovable mines, ending lil billies dream

Iv said my piece anyway, I just had to vent, its just LAAME

Edited July 8, 2024 by Vultima

[Tuna]

Justice for Lil' Billy!

[Goztow]

Justice for lil' Billy!

And for the one! 

[Hypnos]

I wholeheartedly agree with Vultima here. My recollection of mines above doors used to be in a straight line, protruding directly outward (throw them at same spot, they would stack and form a chain away from the door frame in to the building). They wouldn't clip through, as seen in the screenshots Vultima has provided, but could be seen using first person/crouching approach.

I also agree that mines are appear to have a greater activation radius and less are detonated when activated than before hand, making them inherently overpowered, especially when you take the server's mine limit in to consideration (average of ~40-50 per game, iirc?).

I'd say if the community is hellbent on keeping this flawed mechanic within the server, the only way to nerf it would be to dramatically reduce the mine count (30 as default?) which would then force the team to be more selective on how and where they use them.

[GetPastMe]

SolidGold told me invisible mines are a TOTAL disaster for the game.  Guess he likes to sneak around...

GPM

 

[hellou]

i admit. it is a cheap tacit but it doesn't bother me too much either way

[masscarriers]

Good points, we've all been there. RIP Lil Billy

[shaitan]

Looks like it may be HD maps only. The skins on the buildings/tunnel entrances are not that solid. That's going to be something Fori will have to look into(won't be anytime soon).

We can probably make map-specific rules disallowing it. Which, will cause moderation problems: this one would most likely take way longer than the normal game-rule changing for people to get used to it.

Mines above doors have been a thing since 4.0 scripts came out. Mainly, because 4.0's mines rarely kill you when they're on the floor...as you all know.

[Vultima]

gotta get those mine headshots in ya know

[Guest rackz]

On 7/7/2024 at 8:18 PM, Vultima said:

It would have to be programmatically fixed if fixed at all, which is possible

In objects.ddb you only need to set range to 0

then mines gets placed as in renegade X

Edited July 8, 2024 by rackz

[PwnCall]

I agree, I’ve tried to get scripts to make them fall to the floor but don’t think it’s possible.

i did just realize if map makers add a small mesh to the inside of the doors that goes horizontally upwards (or better  yet invisible, it will make them much more visible.). 
 

I plan to add a feature to all of my maps going forward to prevent them as much as possible.

[shaitan]

Why? Then it means we'd have to up the minelimit even further. With even more whining.

There was a reason people started using that tactic, and it was due to the mines not killing people.

[PwnCall]

Mines are meant to slow infantry down really/weaken them, I don’t think they were ever intended to surprise kill people. You will still have corners you can mine on/behind but they are less effective 

[Vultima]

3 hours ago, PwnCall said:

Mines are meant to slow infantry down really/weaken them, I don’t think they were ever intended to surprise kill people. You will still have corners you can mine on/behind but they are less effective 

Biggg agreeee

4 hours ago, shaitan said:

Why? Then it means we'd have to up the minelimit even further. With even more whining.

There was a reason people started using that tactic, and it was due to the mines not killing people.

Do you guys adjust the mine limit depending on the map? Obviously 50 mines on say Islands is totally overkill, but 50 mins on city flying is probably reasonable-ish.
What are people complaining about concerning mines, too much mines, too little mines?
 

If a havoc runs into 6 mines, he's dead, but with the bonus HP you get from various sources in pub servers, it skews that, having every mine effectively be a "headshot" naturally helps ensure kills.
You could increase the base mines people carry from 6 to 7 and think in multiples in 7 instead of 6?
Or you could just tweak the damage they do to give them a buff if you think the TT mines don't do enough damage?
Mines are fundamentally better now in TT vs stock, in fact mines are stronger now because they don't ALL blow up, only what is necessary for a kill blows up, the added HP throws curveballs
Point being, if the general consensus for whatever reason is without above the door mining mines have less worth, buff them a different way to account for that to up their worth - Increased damage, change range, Increase disarm time, increase carry capacity.
The games 22 years old and some of the OG design choices are bad, even on the so called "purist" server RW, we've made changes because the balance didn't seem right, specially considering how strong MRLS are now, and with improved networking arty splash is juicer and registers more, some of these are to do with changes to TT (MRLS) which we've compensated for a different way, using the point above in bold.


Lets say were playing a map with all buildings for GDI which is ground(No hon stairs)

Bar - 1 Hon - 2
WF - 2 Air - 1
Ref - 2 Ref -2
PP - 2 PP - 2
AGT - 1 Ob -1
8 Doors on each team to mine

6x8 = 40 mines
7x8 = 48 mines
Mine limit it already 50 I think, so even on the largest map, you're covered off?
If its a flying map, you'll run low on mines.

Point being you can probably come up with a formula that doesn't require you to think" it could be entirely worked out in code too.
On game start...
1. Count the amount of buildings on the map for each team
2. Work out based of normal expectations of the buildings, how many doors there are to cover
3. Is it a flying type map or uses building models which are the flying type models(even if its a group map, such as Sand HON), do we need to account for anything extra(hon ramps, power ramps, ref ramps, wf ramps, bar drop in), +1 for each "extra"
4. Are there any mines given as "Grace"?
5. AmountOfDoors + Extras x AmountOfMinesRequiredForKill + Grace = MineLimit

For example lets assume AmountOfMinesRequiredForKill = 6
Walls Flying GDI
8 Doors(assuming bar is now equal to 2 not 1 due to dropping behind them)
3 Extras - Power ramp, ref ramp, wf ramp
Amount of Doors(8) + Extras(3) x AmountOfMinesRequiredForKill(6) + Grace(5) = Minelimit(71)

Walls Flying Nod
7 Doors
4 Extras - Power ramp, ref ramp, hon ramp
Amount of Doors(7) + Extras(4) x AmountOfMinesRequiredForKill(6) + Grace(5) = Minelimit(71)

71 seems high, but just tweak the formula so it makes logical sense across all maps