Mines above doors = lame

[ExEric3]

 

 

[Vultima]

Yea that works too I guess, effectively lessen the range so that roof mines don't do jack shit and people stop doing it organically :D
I think that will technically make more mines more powerful anyway, as long as people place them correctly in doors, you're gonna blow mines up and be closer to the explosion radius and therefore more damage? (Good thing, it'll be harder to hump the doors to trigger a muted explosion through a wall too)

Edited July 9, 2024 by Vultima

[PwnCall]

I wonder if the explosion radius could be change, make it so it only explodes in a radius above the mines not centered on the mines, that way if they are on the ceiling they will not damage anyone

[Vultima]

At a guess im going to say yes, but not very easily

[Goztow]

Server side changes to the core game were often made to make it easier for the defending team, very few to make it easier for the attacking team. Like more mines, the "building has xx % damage", end-key to see c4, ... The result: longer games. Personally I prefer to have more open games where you need to actively defend and attack. Personal preference :-).

[PwnCall]

It just took me a solid 5 minutes to try and disarm 5 mines above the door without exploding myself, that shouldn't happen IMO

[tw1x]

The mines over doors definitely need to be changed. Simple solution, make it a server rule and give warnings for a couple weeks then start kicking. 
 

While we are making positive changes, let’s also remove dna drops

[PwnCall]

Need to make a poll to see if there is truly interest in this across the player base 

[Vultima]

4 hours ago, Goztow said:

Server side changes to the core game were often made to make it easier for the defending team, very few to make it easier for the attacking team. Like more mines, the "building has xx % damage", end-key to see c4, ... The result: longer games. Personally I prefer to have more open games where you need to actively defend and attack. Personal preference :-).

Unfortunately that personal preference will never be a reality in pub games lol

3 hours ago, PwnCall said:

It just took me a solid 5 minutes to try and disarm 5 mines above the door without exploding myself, that shouldn't happen IMO

:D yup, its nuts

[Itai795]

I'm up for disallowing invisible mines, but that's it, I don't want to nerf the mines. They are more important to GDI than to Nod, I don't think we should change the mechanics because that will shift the balance towards Nod, which have a slightly higher win rate as is.

[shaitan]

The only difference between now and years ago is the new HD maps. Fori said he'd look into it when he's off holiday around august.

The HD squishy/glitchy door skins are a problem(even tunnel entrances and ceilings). In the meantime, it'll most likely be dealt with rules/enforcement on those maps.

[BiLLaBoNg]

maybe i havent played the HD maps enough to notice this, idk. 99/100 times i feel like i can get to most of the mines if not all without much issue. sure, its annoying to angle it right.

that entrance leading to bar on glacier; since we can mine on each side without ever being able to angle disarm at all, are we going to hardcode that out too? theres certain maps with angled ramps that make it also hard/impossible to disarm, as well. idk.

edit; come to think of it, theres a fuck ton of glitched spots on glacier where they go invis.

Edited July 10, 2024 by BiLLaBoNg
remove glacier i guess

[Vultima]

1 hour ago, BiLLaBoNg said:

maybe i havent played the HD maps enough to notice this, idk. 99/100 times i feel like i can get to most of the mines if not all without much issue. sure, its annoying to angle it right.

that entrance leading to bar on glacier; since we can mine on each side without ever being able to angle disarm at all, are we going to hardcode that out too? theres certain maps with angled ramps that make it also hard/impossible to disarm, as well. idk.

edit; come to think of it, theres a fuck ton of glitched spots on glacier where they go invis.

To whoever the player CAP is to his credit, in my brief experience of running into his mines 5 times, they were invisible every time except the last time where I took the screenie and saw that lil bit, so milleage is gonna vary on who knows how to place the invisi-ones perfectly vs how "disarmable" they are.

Re Glacier: IIRC I think that was the OG glacier_flying version, there was a fixed version, idk if RC is running that, no need to run glacier_flying when you have HD(assuming its fixed on that one)

 

[GetPastMe]

If I understand what Shaitan is saying the problem could be addressed by Fori changing the map versus changing anything about the mines themselves. I think there are some maps better defended with floor mines and others with roof mines.  But other than the problem described with the new map designs causing the mines to become invisible, I think players are well accustomed to how the mines work now. So I don't think we need to change them.

8 hours ago, tw1x said:

While we are making positive changes, let’s also remove dna drops

I think DNA drops are pretty popular based on how many players swarm trying to get them. I think they add a lot of fun to the games.

[PwnCall]

It’s not just on his maps it’s on all of them,  you can make them near invisible .

[Solarsails]

Mines, over the years, have developed a doctrine of use. I placed a partial list of some of these as quoted from Dept of the US Army, HQ manual FM20-32 FM 20-32 "Mine/Countermine
Operations" so that it may illustrate that some of the reasons expressed for banning certain use scenarios in game  defeats the entire purpose and tactics behind the use of  what mines are intended to do.       

Mines are generally placed in concealed locations and engineers go to great length to camouflage, disguise or even lay elaborate booby traps. There have been specific use cases throughout history of mines, standard or improvised, being placed above doors. There is never a warning sign, instructions or nearby ditch prepared for a mine victim to dive into for safety.

So my take on this is if a person can imagine a deployment scenario then it should be just as allowed as any other weapon.  I mean, after all, I am often frustrated by snipers and even sometimes have the opinion that when there are too many that it can 'ruin' the game but I don't believe that it would be appropriate to just ban sniping for my convenience. (I generally get over it anyhow but I would never feel that it would be correct to ban sniping in Renegade and would have to ask myself some tough questions if I did. What is proposed with mining in this discussion would be the same thing as me wanting a rule to ban snipers.

Perhaps we should ask ourselves if we are trying to affect rules so that they will make the game all fun with no possibility of being frustrated by some 'mild' inconvenience. Are people really trying to make the point that mines over doorways should be banned? And why? So a person could just waltz in and take out a control terminal with no resistance?  
It isn't my intention to agitate or piss anyone off here.  I intentionally didn't check the names thoroughly yet because I didn't want to lose my nerve to post this.  What seems to be happening here is that rules are beginning to be made because in some cases a very small minority of players have been frustrated by some in game feature or quirk so it was outlawed. It's sterilizing the game and could ruin it if we get too carried away. (I understand banning glitches and could agree with banning shooting around corners, etc. but legitimate use cases, i.e real world stuff, just seems to be pushing it a little bit.

Of course, I'm always open to new ideas and bow to the experience and seniority of people who have been playing Renegade for much longer than I have, so no disrespect is intended. I'm not LMAO at anyone, trying to start a range war or simply agitate anyone.  These are my opinions on the matter, nothing at all personal.  

I don't think that there is any reason to ban any sort of mining or mine use technique. There aren't too many people who seem to be very good at it (no names) but it can have a tactical ideology of sorts and the ones who can do it well can create frustration at times, like a good sniper.

In my opinion a mine is a booby trap. They almost never have signs, flashing lights or some sort of documentation beside them warning the intended victim of their existence. Simone may never even know what happened if they are taken out by a mine placed by a trained sapper; I can't agree with banning creativity like this (Besides, if you pay attention you can disarm almost any mine, with the tool or otherwise) (not always). Mines are meant to at least slow down an intruder and at best send them to respawn.  Don't let this ruin the game for you if it isn't your forte. I wouldn't change a thing about mines, even the invisible ones because in real war there were plenty of cases where people encountered mines that were undetectable. (Besides I've been sniped more times than I can count by someone that I couldn't see. We need to be careful about changing the basics and maybe these things should be taken to a vote.  I really don't think that a person's level of frustration about negatively encountering a weapon or idea in Ren should be knee jerk rule change to make the game something that a knowledgeable person can end in the first 30 seconds time and again.  

In fact I would consider adding different kinds of mines instead of the single version and it doesn't matter where they are placed; we can't just remove them because they eliminated someones character in an inopportune time.   

If it was instituted in the game then we should always be very reticent about changing it, unless it is a glitch or bug.  If it is technically feasible in real life and is already in game then it should actually stay, unless it gives some sort of outrageous game bending advantage. What I'm trying to get at is these bans and rule changes should be based less on comfort and convenience.  Not everyone has the ability to bend the game into a well tuned advantage for themselves and if we are being honest to ourselves and each other then it may be possible that some of these rule changes are specifically such an effort.

Mines are a reality, just like the super professional sniper and could you imagine the outrage at banning snipers? Substitute the word MINE with SNIPER in this discussion once...

Sorry got a little winded, as usual.  Thanks everyone.  Don't be pissed at me, this isn't a personal attack and I have a lot of respect for many of you and don't want to jeopardize that.  Just some thoughts and considerations on how we should be very cautious about changing the rulesets for non bug related stuff.

-------------------------

SUGGESTION:  A tool for sappers, techs, etc. that when used could give advantage when attempting to detect/disarm deployed mines; not simply a repair tool though; this pushes it for me but it is a well known tool that has been used for almost a century so I can't agree with it not being at least a consideration. 

==================

Mine POIs:

(Dept of the US Army, HQ manual FM20-32 FM 20-32 "Mine/Countermine
Operations" )

Mine uses tactics-

Exploit geographic features *

Free forces for other tasks ***

Discern enemy intentions (the commitment of breach assets into a minefield is a detectable indication of intent)

Create uncertainty for the enemy commander

Alert the defender of an enemy approach and effectively delay and/or prevent dismounted attacks. ***

Make obstacles and barriers more complex and time consuming to breach. *****

Work together with AT mines to create a synergistic effect.

Protect AT mines from rapid breaching or tampering by the enemy.

Generate surprise and confusion among enemy forces. *

Produce a vulnerability on enemy maneuver that can be exploited by friendly forces.

Cause the enemy to break up his forces.

Interfere with enemy command and control.

Inflict damage on enemy personnel and equipment.

Exploit the capabilities of other weapon systems by delaying enemy forces in an engagement area.

Protect friendly forces from enemy maneuver and infiltration. **

Provide the capability of inflicting significant damage to equipment and psychological damage, as well as personnel casualties

Extend, strengthen, and deepen other defensive and offensive measures

Immobilize the enemy until barriers, obstacles, or minefields can be bypassed, breached, or cleared *

Cause direct casualties and psychological damage to an attacking enemy. *

Provide rear-area protection for combat support and logistics units. ***

Act as a force multiplier for small, light forces and earlyentry units. ******

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2024 by Solarsails

[Vultima]

On 7/7/2024 at 7:31 PM, Vultima said:

Well whilst that is what mines are like IRL, it's a game and they often don't depict reality for balancing purposes :D
If the original intention of mines was to be non-disarm-able then repair guns wouldn't work on them, and if they weren't meant to be seen, they'd be invisible to enemies

@Solarsails
The main point is games are meant to be competitive and everything in the game can be beaten, often at the cost of reality.
These above the door mines, are not beatable, you just blow up and die thats it.

It also effectively can into a game of luck and RNG sucks in most games.
RNG in the sense...
If I walk into the air, its mined, I don't see them, I blow up.
However I go into the ref, its not mined, I don't see them, I don't blow up.

Whereas it should be a decision that is made in the moment
1. I walk to the air, its mined I either 
  a. Invest the time in disarming them because I really want the air/I can't get to anything else
  b. Decide to try another building
  c. Forget about it entirely and go back to doing something else(getting back in my vehicle for example and assault from the outside)


In call of duty, you have claymores, which are hidden, but in the game they have visible lasers, which you can identify to see them and shoot to disarm them.
In battlefield mines are visible.
In all battle royal games, mines/claymores/whatever are visible
The point is every game that has mines, has them visible, because its bullshit to play against when they are not, anti-fun and not competitive.
They already aren't real to begin with, if they were real, they'd blow up when allies stepped on them, so I don't think its reasonable to factor in reality one bit tbh
 

Edited July 10, 2024 by Vultima

[Vultima]

3 hours ago, Solarsails said:

Mines, over the years, have developed a doctrine of use. I placed a partial list of some of these as quoted from Dept of the US Army, HQ manual FM20-32 FM 20-32 "Mine/Countermine
Operations" so that it may illustrate that some of the reasons expressed for banning certain use scenarios in game  defeats the entire purpose and tactics behind the use of  what mines are intended to do.       

See above why reality isn't a good benchmark to go off
 

3 hours ago, Solarsails said:

Mines are generally placed in concealed locations and engineers go to great length to camouflage, disguise or even lay elaborate booby traps. There have been specific use cases throughout history of mines, standard or improvised, being placed above doors. There is never a warning sign, instructions or nearby ditch prepared for a mine victim to dive into for safety.

Whilst you do have to invest more time in hiding said mines, any good player can do that in seconds and isn't enough of a "time penalty" as far as balancing is concerned

 

3 hours ago, Solarsails said:

So my take on this is if a person can imagine a deployment scenario then it should be just as allowed as any other weapon.  I mean, after all, I am often frustrated by snipers and even sometimes have the opinion that when there are too many that it can 'ruin' the game but I don't believe that it would be appropriate to just ban sniping for my convenience. (I generally get over it anyhow but I would never feel that it would be correct to ban sniping in Renegade and would have to ask myself some tough questions if I did. What is proposed with mining in this discussion would be the same thing as me wanting a rule to ban snipers.

Snipers are still a beatable threat, either directly by grabbing one yourself, or just staying in a vehicle regardless of how annoying they are, or even mining them off, getting that good at sniping also takes skill and effort, placing mines, not so much.
 

3 hours ago, Solarsails said:

I don't think that there is any reason to ban any sort of mining or mine use technique. There aren't too many people who seem to be very good at it (no names) but it can have a tactical ideology of sorts and the ones who can do it well can create frustration at times, like a good sniper.

The "volume" of people can pull of a trick being low(it isn't low to begin with), is not a factor, if its possible and it is indeed imbalanced, then it shouldn't exist.
By that logic, placing a beacon by jumping on the top of the ref is a "skill", but because only a few people know how to do it, its allowed - This again is an example of an unbeatable mechanic, which is banned for a reason. (Someone tried to make this exact point in discord last month)
One man wall hopping, again banned for a reason, a low amount of players know how to do it, but it's not "fair" so it was deemed banned.
Again, regardless of how good someone is at sniping, its a fair play mechanic which is in the game, which is beatable.
 

  

3 hours ago, Solarsails said:

If it was instituted in the game then we should always be very reticent about changing it, unless it is a glitch or bug.  If it is technically feasible in real life and is already in game then it should actually stay, unless it gives some sort of outrageous game bending advantage. What I'm trying to get at is these bans and rule changes should be based less on comfort and convenience.  Not everyone has the ability to bend the game into a well tuned advantage for themselves and if we are being honest to ourselves and each other then it may be possible that some of these rule changes are specifically such an effort.

Mines are a reality, just like the super professional sniper and could you imagine the outrage at banning snipers? Substitute the word MINE with SNIPER in this discussion once...

Again, using reality as a benchmark for mechanics in a game, is not a fair assessment on if something should be allowed.
Again, snipers are beatable, visible, killable, these invisible mines, are not, your only action is so try your luck, blow up and die.

Imagine how fun monopoly would be if there was a card in the pack that just outright gave you $1000000 - unbeatable and stifles competition.
Imagine how fun uno would be, if you just drew a card which insta-won a game -  ^
Imagine how fun Renegade would be, if there was an unkillable tank - ^
Imagine how fun Renegade would be, if there was an un-disarmable beacon - ^
Imagine how fun Renegade would be, if there was mines that could not be detected or disarmed - ^
Imagine how fun Renegade would be, if there was a crate that gave you un-disarmable mines (effectively it's the same, but at least these would be visible!)
Imagine how fun any game would be, if there was an unbeatable boss, regardless of what you do the outcome is always the same.

Final point:
ANY game mechanic should have a way to beat it, that is the art of balancing a game, there are numerous examples to this just in Renegade alone.
GDI has beefier tanks, Nod has stealth.
C4 can be placed, C4 can be disarmed.
Beacons can be placed, beacons can be disarmed.
Harvesters give 300 credits, harvesters can be destroyed.
Nod has turrets, GDI does not, oh wait thats kinda bullshit too!! :D(but they're shit anyway so people live with this concession)
GDI has the strong rocket infantry, Nod has more "technology" based

The balancing isn't always in direct relation of what it is being balanced for either
Flying vehicles are OP against ALL ground vehicles, they are horrifically weak to snipers
Orca has longer range than an apache (another imbalance, but orcas are beatable other ways and apache still has a chance and are also quieter than Orcas)

Could be here all day, but tell me what beats invisible, undisarmable mines.

Just because I feel like someone is going to mention this, isn't the obby OP/imbalanced, its a one hit kill!
No, it's detectable, avoidable, and it can be overcome by other methods - a decision can be made in the moment to circumvent its effects.
Walking into a door and blowing up seemingly for no perceived/detectable threat, there is no choice/thing/decision you can do to prevent its effects.

Edited July 10, 2024 by Vultima

[crushu06]

Solarsails hitting the world with 10 page paper legendary! I didnt read it but crazy how door mines have caused these research papers as vultima had to counter with 20 page paper

Edited July 11, 2024 by crushu06

[Guest rackz]

lets just play renegade and donate me for a medium tank XD

[UksRene]

Spoony part 2 

forget points fix

here’s mine fix now

Edited July 11, 2024 by UksRene

[Vultima]

don't get me started on pointsfix, that shit is flawed too :D(but so is original)

[Fardin]

On 7/7/2024 at 7:36 PM, Vultima said:

Un-counterable, unresolvable threat, shouldn't exist as a mechanic.

If someone does it properly, you can't even see them

In this image, I know they are there, cos 1 happens to clip through by a tiny pixel, which would take around 30+ seconds to disarm because you can't get a proper beam on it.

I then took a screenshot of every tap of my W key until I blew up, this was the last tap

 

Still can't see them, even in first person, unbalanced af

Glacier_Flying_HD changes the building models slightly, which I think makes the problem worst, iv never seen it be this egregious 

I lost count on the amount of times one of my 100% building kills was spoiled because of this very problem. As someone who likes to sneak around behind enemy lines, this is basically the bane of my existence lol (well...apart from those damn annoying snerips that is). So I completely agree that this should be illegal. imo it is hard enough to sneak into enemy base and stay hidden long enough to disarm 5 or so mines that are easily accessible... Having mines that require you to target a specific pixel (if at all) makes it nigh impossible. 
I am fine with ceiling mines, as they have become part of the META now, but I think it should be  illegal if they are not disarmable and invisible.

[Vultima]

1 hour ago, Fardin said:

I lost count on the amount of times one of my 100% building kills was spoiled because of this very problem. As someone who likes to sneak around behind enemy lines, this is basically the bane of my existence lol (well...apart from those damn annoying snerips that is). So I completely agree that this should be illegal. imo it is hard enough to sneak into enemy base and stay hidden long enough to disarm 5 or so mines that are easily accessible... Having mines that require you to target a specific pixel (if at all) makes it nigh impossible. 
I am fine with ceiling mines, as they have become part of the META now, but I think it should be  illegal if they are not disarmable and invisible.

Yea I don't mind at all if they are visible, I think the issue comes from moderating that would be impossible, it would have to be all or nothing

[WNxH3adSh00t]

Make it so mines launch at enemies