Vegetarianism Debate

[Hedgehog]

So recently the shoutbox is being spammed with comments asking different questions about vegetarian diets, this thread should answer them

Btw i dont get offended by any questions you could ask so please go ahead

[Hedgehog]

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  AnThRaX  6 hours ago

  • Meat contributes greatly to our overall health and contains many nutrients that cannot be obtained in any amount from plants. Things you can not get from plants: Creatine, Carnosine, DHA and EPA which convert the plant Omega-3 ALA into a usable form, and Vitamin b12.
  • Well anthrax youve certainly done your research, the vitamins stated above like Creatine or Carnosine are commonly made by cows and other types of animals, therefore by eating them you get it but how do vegetarians get it? just like animals make it humans also make it and store it incase its needed. (this commonly happens with all vitamins made from amino acids)
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  AnThRaX  6 hours ago

  • Plant-based sources tend to be low in saturated fat, a component of the brain and a macronutrient vital for human health. Plants contain both soluble and insoluble fiber, but fiber is not actually digested. Too much of it can cause cramping, bloating, and other abdominal discomforts including constipation. Without sufficient amounts of water to help move the bulk through the system, intestinal blockage can lead to malabsorption and toxic accumulation.
  • Plant based sources arent low in saturated fats, i could go downstairs right now and pick up a packet of crisps or perhaps a sandwich which has 1% saturated fat for every 100g of bread. whilst true that plants contain soluble and insoluble fibre the insoluble fibre is also quite high is some vitamins such as B12 which i notice is one of the non amino acid ones you stated above, plants are a staple for a vegan diet however its not all grass and bark, insoluble fiber... whilst true that if i eat insoluble fibre alone and in large quantities very quickly it might cause problems in life if it is left to stick there, water can help it move through if taken normally but so can soluble fiber and lots of other foods.
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  AnThRaX  6 hours ago

  • Vegetarianism really makes absolutely no sense in a dietary situation unless you are medically required to lose a lot of weight very quickly. There is a reason the human mouth has canines and incisors. We were made to eat meat. I will stop spamming the shoutbox now, I agree with Gumby, it would make a good topic.

  Vegetarianism actually does make sense in a dietary situation, you cant go out there and eat mcdonalds or KFC which are i think we can agree bad for you, the fact that you dont eat meat can steer you towards healthier foods in the supermarkets and gradually you might find you start losing weight (after all one of the main factors of a diet is thinking about what you eat not just refraining from a certain product), it could help you lose weight very quickly if your diet had a heavy staple of meat then without the meat ofcourse you will get skinny.  Ah i love this last point, whilst humans do have canines and inscisors we also have tail bones therefore we were made to swing from trees? Also whilst true that we are evolved to eat meat there is a keyword there, "Evolved" which was done so we could survive in the wild, now to survive it is no longer manditory to eat meat from mcdonalds or battery farms in order to survive whereas back then it was evolve or die so we grew canines and inscisors over time. Finally we are as humans intelligent enough to quit it for whatever issues you have with it (diet, moral or taste)

[AnThRaX]

Well this is a very highly debated topic, may I ask why your parents became vegetarians?  Can I ask you what plants are high in saturated fats? Your point about my point being incorrect (humans have tailbones etc) ... Humans lack organs to break down cellulose, which would suggest that it'd be much easier for us to run into a problem eating vegetables before we run into a problem eating meat. What do you have to say about that? Also you are aware that there are places to get meats aside from McDonalds and KFC right? Those places are really disgusting because they pack their meats high in preservatives so that they last forever, but anything is okay in moderation.  I just read a story about the world record holder for most big macs eaten in a lifetime, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Gorske he has eaten over 26,000 of them and is still apparently in good health.  Meat isn't inherently bad for us and is much more sustaining than a vegetable only diet I would argue. 

[m0a0n7er]

If you like and care about animals, why do you eat their food?

Although vegetarian food is considered healthier, meat is much more tastier 

[Hedgehog]

1 minute ago, m0a0n7er said:

If you like and care about animals, why do you eat their food?

Although vegetarian food is considered healthier, meat is much more tastier 

Well it takes 17g of wheat to make 1g of beef, meat may be tastier yes and i can accept that

[AnThRaX]

10 minutes ago, m0a0n7er said:

If you like and care about animals, why do you eat their food?

Although vegetarian food is considered healthier, meat is much more tastier 

[Hedgehog]

1 hour ago, AnThRaX said:

Well this is a very highly debated topic, may I ask why your parents became vegetarians?  Can I ask you what plants are high in saturated fats? Your point about my point being incorrect (humans have tailbones etc) ... Humans lack organs to break down cellulose, which would suggest that it'd be much easier for us to run into a problem eating vegetables before we run into a problem eating meat. What do you have to say about that? Also you are aware that there are places to get meats aside from McDonalds and KFC right? Those places are really disgusting because they pack their meats high in preservatives so that they last forever, but anything is okay in moderation.  I just read a story about the world record holder for most big macs eaten in a lifetime, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Gorske he has eaten over 26,000 of them and is still apparently in good health.  Meat isn't inherently bad for us and is much more sustaining than a vegetable only diet I would argue. 

My dad is a vegetarian because he got salmanela as a child and cruelty reasons, my mom had a friend that was vegetarian and when she met my dad i think got converted, Plants arent high in saturated fats but by frying things or cooking them with certain oils alot of the fat becomes saturated. Whilst true that humans lack the organs to digest celluose most of it normally passes through your digestive tract just like apple seeds do or if you stupidly swallowed a marble.

The point about it being much easier to run into a problem eating veg than meat can be true for new vegetarians but after a few years of it you learn alot about nutrients and how to eat a nutritionally complete food source however if you are uneducated on eating meat (a higher percentage of the population is uneducated on meat than veg) it is also easy to fall victim to diseases like salmanella or obesity. I am aware that there are places to get meat other that mcdonalds and KFC however they are one of the leading causes of fatness (readily available cheap food thats bad for you) so by becoming a vegetarian you lower the risk of eating food which is bad for you (most junk food contains meat) which was my point stated above, a diet can get you to stop eating unhealthy foods like KFC.

About that world record holder.... he has an extremely high metabolism and one example of a survivor shouldnt necissarily mean its healthy (look at harry in harry potter, people dont mess with voldemort xD) Your conclusion is correct that meat can be far more sustaining than a vegetable only diet because the majority of vegetarians change from meat to vegetables without the correct knowledge, with correct knowledge a vegetarian only diet can be just as sustaining and with correct knowledge like many long term vegetarians have can be more sustaining than the average omnivore diet (however a correct knowledge of an omnivore diet can be more sustaining that a vegetarian diet from someone new to vegetarianism). To conclude you can get nutrients from both diets but you have less chance to run into problems like obesity and high blood pressure if you are a vegetarian which means you have to stay off certain forms of meat like KFC or Mcdonalds.

 

[m0a0n7er]

59 minutes ago, AnThRaX said:

My opinion, my plate

[Hedgehog]

4 minutes ago, m0a0n7er said:

My opinion, my plate

Yep you have every right to have that opinion but this is a debate about nurtitional values and how vegetarians may/may not get the correct amount of nurtition and why/why not its healthier than a meat based diet

[DJEYEK]

Besides that, Vegewhat? U need Meat to live healthy, simply as that.

[Hedgehog]

31 minutes ago, DJEYEK said:

Besides that, Vegewhat? U need Meat to live healthy, simply as that.

*facepalm*

Elephants must be so unhealthy and skinny from not eating meat

 

[Delusional]

I'm sorry to pop up like this in the debate but, what on earth might an elephant and a human have in common? If even two persons that live in the same house will need a different amount of daily kJ in their diet, how can we even compare humans to elephants in terms of nutrition/health when it comes to eating or not meat?

PS: Not to mention that elephants aren't fat. I won't start an endless post about it, but to keep it short: humans on birth are set to have a thin "structure" (bones, organs, digestive system, etc) and elephants are set to have a way bigger structure. So let's not mistake how humans and animals are structured with getting fat due to what or what we don't eat.

[Hedgehog]

Whilst its true that 2 humans might need different requirements and might not even need the same nutrients as elephants it does prove that it is possible to sustain heavy levels (i cant think of anything musclier than an elephant) of protein and muscle living off a herbivore diet without suppliment pills

To expand on my previous point about  "U need Meat to live healthy, simply as that." i didnt want to come out too condescending but if you need meat to survive how is it that i am still alive having never eaten meat myself? the same holds true for 100s of millions of people around the world

[AnThRaX]

4 minutes ago, Hedgehog said:

Whilst its true that 2 humans might need different requirements and might not even need the same nutrients as elephants it does prove that it is possible to sustain heavy levels (i cant think of anything musclier than an elephant) of protein and muscle living off a herbivore diet without suppliment pills

To expand on my previous point about  "U need Meat to live healthy, simply as that." i didnt want to come out too condescending but if you need meat to survive how is it that i am still alive having never eaten meat myself? the same holds true for 100s of millions of people around the world

Come on man, it's not much of a debate if you are just going to write stuff off the top of your head without doing even the slightest bit of research( hopefully no offense) .  Huge herbivores like rhinoceroses, horses, elephants, etc are capable of digesting cellulose and therefore get much of the essentials they need such as proteins and vitamins from the plants they consume whereas those things are "locked away" to humans.  Stating that an elephant can get huge off plant material such as the high protein content alfalfa makes perfect sense because their bodies are designed to do that, humans are not.

[Delusional]

(Edit: this was for Hedge, Jesse was faster tho and explained it way better).

Problem is you're not an elephant nor an herbivore, you're not going out there to eat directly from a tree or from the ground. Not to mention that while its true that elephants don't need meat, do you have any idea about the insane amount of "food" they eat each day and the amount of water they do get? I don't think vegetarians do get a similar amount based on their structure/needs.

Besides, an elephant/any other herbivore and a human do diferent things, and are exposed to way more different atmospheres/weathers. So you can't compare both cases.

[Hedgehog]

Aaah gimme a chance to reply xD

The comment about the elephant in hindsight didnt relate well to the debate (see below), the overall point of the comment about the elephant was to reply to "U need Meat to live healthy, simply as that.", this comment is generally stating that "u need meat to live healthily" and the existence of all herbivores disproves that in a 100% natural habitat, elephants are the muscliest animal i could think of so i thought using their existence in the wild without meat would disprove this statement.

 

 

 

[Hedgehog]

Back to the debate then

Anthrax, So far in this debate i have been on the defensive answering questions about my diet and where i get my nutrients, clearly im getting them somewhere. im gonna make a list of my answers to questions you asked about this

Creatine, Carnosine are naturally made by my body

DHA and EPA can be found in eggs and milk and seaweed

B12 is found in soy products and all dairy

Insoluble fiber normally runs through your digestive tract like a small rock would if you are stupid enough to eat one

Vegetarianism can cause people to watch their diet which is very good for people, also staying away from fast food is good for you

Humans do have canines and inscisors however we also have tail bones and are intelligent enough to stop eating meat for any reason we want

Saturated fats can be made by cooking in any sort of vegetarian oil

Its easier to run into problems with meat because the animals can pick up diseases whereas with plants its easy to see if its going mouldy or not.

Fast food is okay in moderation however if you avoid it completely like most vegetarians do chances are your gonna weigh less and have a lower blood pressure

The world record holder is plain stupid and has probably had some sort of lipo suction surgery combined with a high metabolism to eat that many big macs

The world record holder could also be fake

Celluose digestion is interesting though, its one of the arguments thats hard to combat because after all humans arent perfectly adapted to eating insoluble fiber, Humans however can consume it in small amounts relative to our size and how much we work our muscles, we dont need to be big anymore either so it really isnt manditory to eat alot of it at a time, you can digest bran flakes easily and that should get you set in terms of insoluble fiber intake.

 

[Hedgehog]

Well i agree with you, I learned Lots about cellulose but I suppose that concludes the debate, if anyone else has questions feel free

 

 

 

 

 

[StJohn Gumby]

There is one conundrum I'm puzzling.

As we've established, the natural order of the food chain put's carnivores above herbivores, so in the unlikely event of being in an emergency situation (like being a survivor of an airplane crash in the desert), as a carnivore myself, and to preserve the natural order of things, should I eat the surviving vegetarians first?

Gumby

 

[Hedgehog]

If you have the willpower to eat another human being you deserve to survive the longest

[StJohn Gumby]

Yes, but is it better to eat a vegetarian as they are lower down the food chain is what I'm asking.

Gumby

[Joetorp]

14 hours ago, StJohn Gumby said:

There is one conundrum I'm puzzling.

As we've established, the natural order of the food chain put's carnivores above herbivores, so in the unlikely event of being in an emergency situation (like being a survivor of an airplane crash in the desert), as a carnivore myself, and to preserve the natural order of things, should I eat the surviving vegetarians first?

Gumby

 

It depends on what she looks like...

Joe

[StJohn Gumby]

3 hours ago, Joetorp said:

It depends on what she looks like...

Joe

I think that's a Vagitarian Joe. 

I have no objection to eating pussy.

Gumby

[Hedgehog]

17 hours ago, StJohn Gumby said:

Yes, but is it better to eat a vegetarian as they are lower down the food chain is what I'm asking.

Gumby

Where on the food chain would you be if you were stuck in a rainforest with no burger king in sight? xD

[StJohn Gumby]

33 minutes ago, Hedgehog said:

Where on the food chain would you be if you were stuck in a rainforest with no burger king in sight? xD

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The food chain is theoretical so I would still be at the top of it. True that insects and spiders are more of a danger than larger predators in a rainforest but that doesn't mean they are higher up the food chain.

If you mean how would I, personally, survive if the rain forest was devoid of fast food outlets I would have to rely on my old army jungle warfare training. I have no problem catching, cooking and eating snakes and monkeys.

If you mean,specifically, no Burger King, It wouldn't bother me at all. I much prefer Wendy's anyway.

Baconator > Bacon Double Cheese.

Gumby