strategic implications of bringing back limited ammo

[DickClark]

VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE HERE BEFORE I BEGIN : this is NOT a hardline 'WE MUST BRING BACK LIMITED AMMO NAAAAO' post. i merely hope to open up some dialogue here.

so: as i might accurately be able to recall, unlimited weapon ammo was brought into Jelly Server quite some time ago. it (predictably) got a positive response overall, as people where jazzed about not having to go back to purchase terminals to get railgun shots. instant gratification. naturally people like that.

HOWEVER: there were many key differences between jelly at the time and rencorner now. on jelly, enemies did NOT drop backpacks of weapons. basically whatever character you bought, you were stuck with that weapon. when you were out of ammo, your choices (as a non engineer) were to book it back to your base, start pistoling everything in sight and eventually get light tank headshot'd, or get aboard a tank and convince the driver to drive you back. however, if i managed to get 32 railgun/pic shots off, i found myself feeling like i had gotten quite a bit done with them.

heres the thing though. now in rencorner, i often find myself with an array of weaponry that in jelly server, i would have found to be a treasure trove. BUT. with unlimited ammo, theres NO STRATEGIC REASONING WHATSOEVER to switch to anything other than a railgun for tanks or a ramjet for infantry. so, what this means is i could be sitting there with a weak rocket, a strong rocket, and LCG, and a flechette gun, and theoretically never take out any of them because i have a railgun with more ammo than Canada has maple syrup.

basically, i feel like limited ammo would reward weapon collectors with extra ammo on the battlefield / give people incentive to share weaker weapons with basic infantry and/or people who just spawned. and that limited ammo would play much better with the backpack system of rencorner than it ever did in servers where the most powerful gun available to pick up on the battlefield was the weak rocket / standard sniper that spawned in that one spot every map. 

lemme know what you all think. remember this is just for discussion purposes, its not a full out proposed rule change or anything like that.

[mdogg1108]

No

[DickClark]

i see you're into the instant gratification. lol

[Goztow]

An in between solution could be that purchased weapons are unlimited ammo and picked up weapons have limited ammo.

However, I think people will still rather reload that rail gun rather than to use weaker weapons. The weaker weapons always were useless in ren. 

[Evie]

only pimped weapons should have limited ammo imo

[m0a0n7er]

Yes! And the sooner the better!!

[warlord83]

That's actually a good idea all pimp weapons need ammo. Lol and snipers hehehe

[ragnaroec]

we need a pimped weapon limit  not limited ammo

[Nudle]

Regardless of how annoying I find limited ammo..

When I buy a shotgun trooper (only tried in Field RxD) it only has 8 shells? What's up with that! :o

and when you pick on up from techie, it has 8+31? Whereas full ammo would be 8+32.. So why is there one missing?

[Guest rackz]

Atleast pussy snipers might finally buy a tank. Because they cannot camp the whole spot all time without refilling.

 

I like limited ammo!

Edited October 26, 2016 by rackz

[toprun79]

Wtf is wrong with you guys?

Everyday you bring up something new ... buyable pimped weps..poll-reminder..limited ammo..no hill camp blabla

Why cant you just leave it the way it is?

Looks like you wanna make the last renegade players mad and leave.

[vlatkozelka]

3 hours ago, Nudle said:

Regardless of how annoying I find limited ammo..

When I buy a shotgun trooper (only tried in Field RxD) it only has 8 shells? What's up with that! :o

and when you pick on up from techie, it has 8+31? Whereas full ammo would be 8+32.. So why is there one missing?

Ren's original code is buggy as hell. The weapon you pick up is different from the one you buy, literally , it's a totally different object.

Before TT and Dragonade, the ramjet you pick up used to be 2 shots only. The pistol you bought used to need reloading right off the bat... All these bugs are back now that limited ammo is back :p

PS: I'm 80% sure of this info plz don't kill me if I'm wrong

[shaitan]

There's no "you guys" it's me, and frankly I am going off of what's said/done ingame as to whether something will be temp/kept(plus it's something different for people). This topic was pure coincidence, as I have been waiting to restart that server to get er done.

If you really want to know: 18 reminder/16 no_reminder(extra poll reminder page)  |  22 superstar/39 twat(auto-teamchanger(super=doing it on your own/twat=bot doing it for you)) | This Friday night I'll get the Hourglass win/lose/time/skip stats from 10/22-10/28 and 10/15-10/21 and post them in the other topic, and we can see if things get better or worse(I think better).

The one timestamp in blue is AOW mode, rest are Marathon mode. The two all in red do not count(1st= 1 player, 2nd = server restart). The one in green was the one time that map was skipped. 5 wins GDI/4 wins Nod...so far.

[10-22-2016] [05:36:09] <RCAOW> [Gameover] Nod has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 00.07.08 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 6 Nod: 8750] [1/60]
[10-22-2016] [13:40:18] <RCAOW> [Gameover] GDI has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 00.47.08 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 33966 Nod: 23662] [44/60]
[10-23-2016] [01:29:21] <RCAOW> [Gameover] GDI has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 00.09.13 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 9183 Nod: 2] [2/60]
[10-23-2016] [08:16:14] <RCAOW> [Gameover] Nod has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 01.29.50 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 36293 Nod: 46111] [28/60]
[10-23-2016] [23:33:38] <RCAOW> [Gameover] GDI has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 00.30.02 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 18971 Nod: 16281] [19/60]
[10-24-2016] [04:34:12] <RCAOW> [Gameover] Nod has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 00.09.08 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 0 Nod: 8750] [1/60]
[10-24-2016] [09:50:40] <RCAOW> [Gameover] GDI has won the game by Server Shutdown, lasted 00.03.11 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 61 Nod: 38] [12/60]
[10-24-2016] [20:38:28] <RCAOW> [Gameover] Nod has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 00.22.45 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 10389 Nod: 17390] [16/60]
[10-25-2016] [02:01:15] <RCAOW> [Gameover] GDI has won the game by Server Shutdown, lasted 00.00.02 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 0 Nod: 0] [0/60]
[10-25-2016] [08:04:42] <RCAOW> [Gameover] GDI has won the game by High Score, lasted 00.29.57 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 7018 Nod: 6449] [14/60]
[10-25-2016] [16:00:35] <RCAOW> [Gameover] Nod has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 00.31.13 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 16590 Nod: 28024] [20/60]
[10-26-2016] [11:24:01] <RCAOW> [Gameover] GDI has won the game by Building Destruction, lasted 00.09.30 [Map: C&C_Hourglass.mix, GDI: 15143 Nod: 3758] [25/60]

 

[Redz85]

16 hours ago, DickClark said:

heres the thing though. now in rencorner, i often find myself with an array of weaponry that in jelly server, i would have found to be a treasure trove. BUT. with unlimited ammo, theres NO STRATEGIC REASONING WHATSOEVER to switch to anything other than a railgun for tanks or a ramjet for infantry. so, what this means is i could be sitting there with a weak rocket, a strong rocket, and LCG, and a flechette gun, and theoretically never take out any of them because i have a railgun with more ammo than Canada has maple syrup.

I agree with this. 

[BeerBaron]

With unlimited ammo, there is more incentive to share weapons than there is without. If you never run out, spare weapons like an lcg/flech/rocket just get in the way of switching between weapons when needed. With limited ammo, people will feel much more need to carry the other stuff if/when they run out of ammo for their primary weapons.

Limited ammo cause a serious problem for certain weapons with high ROF. If anyone remembers using an LCG Black Hand from back in the day, you know what I mean. Chem Warriors can no longer destroy a building by themselves. Volts are only good for 15 seconds before they have to run off and get sniped in the back.

The only positive I forsee by returning to the standard here is that it will be much harder to hold the field on Under. Now you can argue the merits on other maps such as Walls Flying will have a harder time covering beacons from the top or City Flying can once again use flying vehicles. Thats all well and good but I know, Shaitan only did this for Under. So a wide spread game change just for 1 map in the rotation.

What's happened here is a fundamental shift in gameplay mechanics. Infantry have a drastic reduction to their offensive capabilities which will promote even more camping. Marathon is now crippled as defenders of a losing side will have to leave their strong defensive postures for ammo. Tank drivers such as myself have always looked down at the people that use infantry because they wont contribute to the team. By limiting ammo again, that is now more true than ever.

[Theboy]

I think the solution to your problem isn't in the realm of limited ammo but more in the realm of eliminating weapon drops. As you illistrated, winding up with a bunch of different weapons your not going to use makes then pointless. 

It would make sense to eliminate weapon drops as you can !buy and weapon thats relevant and people would have to actually earn power weapons instead of picking them up after someone dies. 

The point of unlimited ammo was to balance nod and gdi out more. Unlimited ammo helps gdi fight off arties with ramjets that can actually hold the field down and its balanced because all sides get that unlimited ammo. Its purpose was never about convenience but really about balance. 

 

But yes, stop toying with the game...these ideas are nice to discuss but there are hardley any problems with ren that havent already been balanced or people dont know how to deal with.

[masscarriers]

Out of curiosity, how many maps are skipped when there's, idk, over 25 players compared to between 6-15?

I wouldn't be surprised if less than 5% of the maps are skipped when there's a huge number of players and over 20% when it's between a few regulars regardless of the map. Passing a vote has always been easier with less players because it's mostly the same people who take the time to vote versus those who just don't care. Just look how hard it is to pass a powerdown vote on an stalemate with 40 players even if one of the team is losing hard and people are all fed up, the number of voters doesn't scale up with "game epicness" for some reason.

I'll side with Shai on wanting to test stuff as a response to those saying we shouldn't toy with the server. Yeah it's not necessarily better when something's changed up but it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. The rules and parameters of RC aren't perfect by virtue of how long it's been left that way without paying attention. If anything playing the game slightly differently for a week regardless of how some dislike the changes won't drive anybody out of renegade. For the most parts the regulars here have experienced several server over the years that all had different gaming experiences and staff so they know what to expect when playing here and that we can't please everyone all the time. The opposite is true as well, people who really enjoy the current rules and gameplay should expect us to make some changes along the years or at least to test some things for the sole reason that we're the last remaining "not-completely-modded-and-w/-wierd-maps" server. People don't have a choice but to play here unless they truly enjoy the Multiplayer Practice, the admins don't have to always please a certain category of players for the sake of "how the game should be played".

I congratulate shai for investing his time in tweaking with various aspects of the game and probing the player base (maybe it's being done now because he's playing less ARK and more Ren? :p). We only need to make sure the changes are being done and analysed as a Team and discussed behind the curtains rather than a quiet "no it's me". (right gumby? :P). But so far I think the team's been doing really good, so props Shai!

With that said, two points regarding the polls.

The superstar/twat thing is nothing more than a joke now imho, maybe the message went through to the players fearing the big bad bot and I hope so but the stats behind the !votes are all but meaningless. People were massively voting !twat because "haha twat".

I'm not budging on the reminder, it needs to be taken out. I'm already receiving enough from people who need my attention on some AFKs or whatnot, and I'm glad to help them, but I don't need one from the server every single game to waste my time looking up and get killed. I'll fight for this little insignificant point and be completely unreasonable, be prepared :P

[vlatkozelka]

All this reading , I'm hungry :S

[shaitan]

You can say that, but I go ingame and see people voting right after the reminder is paged. Been thinking of a way to add certain people to a list and page them...but I haven't had much luck so far in that.

[vlatkozelka]

I can't remember the poll without the reminder and ...

1 hour ago, masscarriers said:

 I'll fight for this little insignificant point and be completely unreasonable, be prepared :P

[Joetorp]

24 minutes ago, vlatkozelka said:

All this reading , I'm hungry :S

Go stuff your face, Vlat, you look mal-nuturished.

[StJohn Gumby]

3 hours ago, masscarriers said:

We only need to make sure the changes are being done and analysed as a Team and discussed behind the curtains rather than a quiet "no it's me". (right gumby? :P)

Haven't got a Scooby what your talking about.

Gumby

[bad2gurlz]

i really love unlimited weapon, with chem i could destroy one whole base ;) But if shai is testing and testing only in 1 map which is under, im cool with that. But overall i'd say let the pimp guns be limited.

[BeerBaron]

what about limited ammo on AOW maps, unlimited on Mara?

[shaitan]

Judging by comments ingame yesterday, that limited ammo went over better than you think.