strategic implications of bringing back limited ammo

[mdogg1108]

23 hours ago, golf2107 said:

Wtf is wrong with you guys?

Everyday you bring up something new ... buyable pimped weps..poll-reminder..limited ammo..no hill camp blabla

Why cant you just leave it the way it is?

Looks like you wanna make the last renegade players mad and leave.

 

[Guest rackz]

Reminds me of MPF with all that Imperial AIDS maps. Thats why i left MPF lol

Edited October 27, 2016 by rackz

[Itai795]

On 10/26/2016 at 7:57 AM, Goztow said:

An in between solution could be that purchased weapons are unlimited ammo and picked up weapons have limited ammo.

 

I think this is a good idea worth testing. It doesn't change the game mechanics and balances, while still might give some insights and make the weaker weapons somewhat more useful.

Generally speaking, unlimited ammo balances the game and keep the infantry useful. I don't remember infantry were fun in the limited ammo days, except for base defense purposes.

 

Also, like masscarriers as pointed out, thank you Shai for the work on those little tweaks. I believe changing some of the mechanics once in a while, without changing the usual ren feel is what keeps RC appealing to many players over the years.

[DickClark]

WOAH, we got off topic here... lemme bring it back

first off: NO ONE is getting 'mad' that we're posting discussion questions. productive discussion NEVER a bad thing. im actually GLAD that we can sit here on the forums and discuss possible different scenarios. whether a possible (not even FORMALLY PROPSED mind you) rule change is for strategy purposes, balance purposes, or for the fuck of it purposes, you ALL need to understand that the fanbase is WAAY too invested to be 'angered' by slight tweaks. the reason people love this game is the GAMEPLAY. so any type discussion that we FEEL will help the gameplay is WORTH having........ quite honestly any type attitude against this concept is A) a strawman / devils advocate type argument and B) EXTREMELY short sighted. i understand the concept of 'let em play', (we ALL do), but limited or unlimited ammo, hill camping or not hill camping, its STILL ren. worrying about ren's gameplay and its appeal is like worrying about the sun exploding. if EA couldnt kill us so long ago, TALKING ABOUT the possible effects of a few tweaks in 2016 aint gon do jack. so clam down naysayers, you trying to create a self fullfilling profecy or some shit? xD


also, bringing back limited ammo would be MORE like core ren gameplay from the westwood era anyhow. which we ALL love, and is especially why i wanted to start this topic.

so, now back on topic: a few of you are talking about camping here. im nearly 100% certain having unlimited ammo DEFINITELY promotes 'field camping', and at the very least HINDERS base camping. how? pretty simple. if you have all the ammo in the world, you can stay in field making EASY AS ALL FUCK shots on tanks with your limitless (and apparently also really heavy) backpack of raveshaw/ sydney bullets. where as if you're backed up, camping with railguns/pics is a great strategy, but having limited ammo is AT LEAST going to make you have to head back for refills. which could be disastrous if done at the wrong time.

Goztow mentions that weaker weapons were always a bad play even back in the day. however gozy, are you sure that it wasnt the lack of a backpack system that made it so? and also, say you have an LCG and a rail. most players literally are NEVER gonna use the LCG ...... UNLESS you've managed to exhaust your railgun supply! then all the sudden the LCG is your best friend and can help you either defend yourself for a run back to the base OR if you also have a repgun, you can opt to stay in field and have the LCG as a fallback option.

on a related note: i remember even back during the demo feeling like ONLY giving the repgun and the pistol unlimited ammo was BRILLIANT. it encouraged people who were good at staying alive repping to get even better at it, and it helped promote overall teamplay. it made hotwires / techs the MOST high leverage kills in the field also, as they where the source of a team holding good field position for PROLONGED periods of time. and yet STILL due to how effective railguns and pics are, taking them into the field with 32 shots was VERY productive indeed.

one more thing: was anyone here INVOLVED in the decision to open up the pandoras of unlimited ammo open quite a long time ago? i dont exactly remember if it was something that was DISCUSSED and tested or tested and got a positive response. i remember not being suprised that it did at the time, (again, instant gratification is a popular evil, but an evil nonetheless) but questioning how it could effect strategy and balance. and here we are with it well ingrained.




 

[Joetorp]

Ammo is an important factor for any war game,  unlimited ammo is not realistic.  The vehicles have unlimited ammo, isn't that enough?  For infantry, you should run out and have to reload, imo.  That way you don't have snipers camping the whole game in 1 spot or gunners being able to kill a building.

[DickClark]

12 minutes ago, Itai795 said:

I think this is a good idea worth testing. It doesn't change the game mechanics and balances, while still might give some insights and make the weaker weapons somewhat more useful.

Generally speaking, unlimited ammo balances the game and keep the infantry useful. I don't remember infantry were fun in the limited ammo days, except for base defense purposes.

 

Also, like masscarriers as pointed out, thank you Shai for the work on those little tweaks. I believe changing some of the mechanics once in a while, without changing the usual ren feel is what keeps RC appealing to many players over the years.

itai / mass : not only is talking about / making tweaks helpful, but its important to discuss/ make the RIGHT little changes. which are the right ones? EVERYONE needs understand this: ANY changes that ACCENTUATE STRENGTHS of core ren gameplay are the most  worth discussing / trying. thats what i LOVE about this rencorner group of mods: thier focus is RIGHTLY on accentuating / adding to the things we LOVE about core ren gameplay, and that type of attitude/approach is what the game has sorely needed.

Edited October 27, 2016 by DickClark
addition

[masscarriers]

5 hours ago, DickClark said:

then all the sudden the LCG is your best friend

Wait did I read that right

Yeah and use it for 3½ seconds before it runs out of ammo, I think I'd rather use the handgun against inf than the lcg :P

[mdogg1108]

[shaitan]

You make me feel like I killed your dogs, sometimes it feels like I killed said dog and ate it.

You guys made a bunch of topics complaining about wanting changes, now you've gotten some temporary/permanent changes...and some of you are losing your minds about it. Forums say one thing, in game says another.

[ragnaroec]

for those who like limited ammo or similar things - why dont we add a vanilla mod map to the rotation ?

no donations, standard veh-limit ( i think it was 8), no pickups ....... etc.

could be fun as hell :D

[Forithow]

On 27/10/2016 at 1:14 PM, BeerBaron said:

what about limited ammo on AOW maps, unlimited on Mara?

I agree with this idea tbh

[Theboy]

10 hours ago, shaitan said:

You make me feel like I killed your dogs, sometimes it feels like I killed said dog and ate it.

You guys made a bunch of topics complaining about wanting changes, now you've gotten some temporary/permanent changes...and some of you are losing your minds about it. Forums say one thing, in game says another.

While Im one of those ppl against changes, Id say give more weight to the general consensus ingame. I dont personally think any of the changes talked about in the past couple month are game changers anyway, I just think it would suck to join the server someday and find out its been going the way of mpf. Its all about whatever works to leep the player base around imo. 

For those of us who have played ren for over 10 years, we remember how much fun it was before changes came and certain tactics were banned. We wont see those days again and thats ok. Im personally fine settling for what it is now. Newer people to the game will just never know what those days were like :P

[Guest rackz]

Lets stay where it was for the most of time. RenCorner is the #1 active server, get rid of all those new changes and everything should be fine. This topic gives to much thinking about changes and new stuff...

 

Theres a reason RenCorner is #1, changing stuff would lead to another direction... Its up to the players how they play, and not the server changes...

Edited October 28, 2016 by rackz

[DickClark]

*shakes head so hard it nearly falls off*

......................you all are aware that unlimited ammo WAS a change FROM original renegade, correct? 

shifting it back would be MORE like original ren gameplay.... or do none of you 'member' that?

 

[Joetorp]

! remember, ! remember.

[Goztow]

That was a long time ago when Gumby still had hair and still had good looks. 

I remember. . . 

[DickClark]

i didnt intend this to be a thread for ALL rules changes goddamnit! >< this thread's about unlimited ammo!!!!! xD

but yeah, no hillcamp definetly gonna swing results. now, its not really that fair that mrls can basically only hit ob.

i wish we could just make the hill a tiny tiny bit higher so arty cant hit everything

[shaitan]

That's funny, I posted in the wrong topic...too many tabs opened earlier.

[Mikey]

On 26 October 2016 at 4:26 PM, golf2107 said:

Wtf is wrong with you guys?

Everyday you bring up something new ... buyable pimped weps..poll-reminder..limited ammo..no hill camp blabla

Why cant you just leave it the way it is?

Looks like you wanna make the last renegade players mad and leave.

Couldn't have said it better myself, i'm sure he posts a new topic every few days. Not sure why.

[Guest rackz]

8 hours ago, DickClark said:

i wish we could just make the hill a tiny tiny bit higher so arty cant hit everything

Maybe bring back black-cells red laserwalls with those red lines to block hillcamp and b2b on specific maps :D you dont even need to edit the maps.

[BeerBaron]

tbh i liked limited ammo because it shifted power back to vehicles where it belongs. but dedicated tank drivers are the minority of the player base. to appease the majority, leave ammo unlimited.

[Goztow]

Someone talked about dedicated tank drivers? 

[Guest rackz]

1 minute ago, Goztow said:

Someone talked about dedicated tank drivers? 

We are the 1%. Oldskool hope is still there!

[BeerBaron]

id say more like 15-20%

[Learonys]

Yes, i'm late, but I'm still responding

Not gonna quote stuff but i have a few comments regarding whatever:

- I've tested the ROF on automatic guns, and they're surprisingly exactly the same: LCG, Flechette, Chaingun, Minigun, Volt Auto rifle, Chem sprayer: 10 rounds per minute. Reloads are pretty similar but I haven't tested those.

- I actually like the reminder a lot. But i'm still forgetting to vote even with the reminder, so that doesn't mean i'm failing less :)

- Unlimited vs limited ammo: Don't care too much, but yes, unlimited ammo does favour a winning team as they don't have to walk the greater distance to PT's. The only moment it will have a noticable effect is when the enemy team's snipers are camping your tunnel or railgunners/PICs camp the hill on Under like the annoying little shits that they are :P

- Some other stuff I may have forgotten